LGS Shenanigans...

I think there might actually be two different "local gun shops" we're talking about here.
There are. I've seen what's on Long Island, and it's not pretty. The restrictiveness of the local infrastructure doesn't help. In your shoes, I'd feel the same.

That said, pretty much anywhere south or west of you (with the exceptions of MD and NJ) are more permissive. There we see a ton of competition. Meeting or coming close to internet pricing is a real factor. That brings margins down to the point where they're barely sustainable.

Consider a small dealer who sells $5000 in guns in a day. He's eking out maybe $450-500 in margin. Take out payroll, rent, utilities, and cost of inventory, and it's not pretty. In that case, taking a $20 hit on a gun can be the difference between breaking even and losing money.

There are ways to supplement that. If you have the capital (and you can get the zoning), an onsite range helps. So do supplemental services like training and gunsmithing. But those things come with their own overhead as well. At the end of the day, folks do this out of love, not profit.
 
Yeah, we've got nothing of the sort around here. Case in point, I had a Rem 11-87 and a Browning Gold that both desperately needed trigger work. They both had the "Classic":rolleyes: 9+ pound triggers. I called at least 5 different gunsmiths. None of them would TOUCH a trigger. "Insurance won't let me" was one response. Some never called me back after Joe Bob WhoKnowsWhyHesAnsweringThePhoneAnyway told me the 'smith wasn't there at the moment. I ended up sending the triggers to Montana or Wyoming (somewhere out there:D) to get them fixed.

There's not a gun shop around here that I'd let clean my guns, say nothing of fix/modify one.

That big difference is important when we're talking about supporting local places. They have to be WORTH supporting.
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
That big difference is important when we're talking about supporting local places. They have to be WORTH supporting.

Major point there. We have a local shop that is fantastic. If you want to handle the wares in there you go in, take a number and wait your turn for personalized attention and they are ALWAYS busy. Gear and supplies are out and about on the floor, but for anything in a case you are waiting in line.
They are knowledgeable, courteous, pleasant, and will take their time to answer questions to even the most beginning of beginners to this past time.
So I spend my money there. Its an excellent shop.
There are other shops around where I might even be able to save a couple bucks, or are a bit closer, but I won't go near and won't advise anyone else to visit.

Gun shops are a business, albeit one in which we are very interested, and need to be run like any other business. I don't go to a particular dealer in town to get our Toyota serviced because they are shysters that will take advantage of the unwary, and do go to a different that is professionally run and I don't feel I need to wash my hands after speaking to anyone there. Were that the only option I would find another way, etc, rather than vote with my dollars for someone that I do not trust / want to deal with / etc. I have too few of them and life is not worth it.
 
Post 19, the role or purpose of LGSs....

I agree with post 19(Brian/staff). :D
The QC/training in a few gun shops/brick & mortar retailers is really lacking.

About a month ago, I visited a large gun shop in the Daytona Beach area. I had to explain to the young sales clerk how to tell if a Smith & Wesson M&P pistol has a magazine safety or not. :rolleyes:

Now, there may be some "bullet-head Bobs" or "Hank Hill"(King of the Hill) types on gun/tactics message boards that would be harder to please than an average US customer but fair prices & decent customer service(competent staff) isn't asking for a lot in 2014.

A few weeks ago, I referred to a older Youtube.com clip where YankeeMarshal advised viewers(gun owners/license holders) to go & buy items from local gun retail locations. His rationale was that the smaller gun shops are going under all across the USA due to lack of support. :rolleyes:
I disagree with YM too. A gun shop or sporting goods retailer that falls flat more than likely had a # of flaws that caused it to fail.
My buying 1 or 2 firearms in a calendar year or spending $20.00/$30.00 per month isn't going to change that fact.
 
I say this as a small business owner...

I really don't understand how anyone can suggest that we should pay some small gun shop a 66% premium because he's a "small business" or a "local guy".

Tough luck. Free enterprise rules the day. He can write a price tag for whatever he wants but I'm not paying a 66% premium. I'm the buyer, I set the prices.

A $50 transfer fee is STUPID. Prices in this area are high and I don't recall running across one who charged more than $35 for a transfer, most are $25.

I try to go to local shops every time I buy a gun. I almost never actually buy one there. Unfortunately, it's not even their fault sometimes, it's sales tax. I don't mind paying $50 more or so on a $500-$700 gun but no way am I paying $75 extra, minimum, PLUS TAX to the bottom line.

Most times, local shop are priced $100-$150 higher than Bud's and then 8% more on top for tax. That's $200 on a $500 gun.

No way, no how.

Bud's Gun Shop didn't start out as one of the largest and best online retailers. They started as a local gun shop and had to compete for business. For crying out loud, Wal*Mart started as a local store and had to compete. Now they're huge because they WON, not because somebody paid them double prices because they were "local".

If you buy anything from a dollar store (privately owned, not a chain) you are paying much more the 66% mark up. When I worked for one, we would buy in BULK at usually less than .01 per piece/item, yes, one penny or less per item and sold them for $1…

What type of business do you own now?
 
I really couldn't care less about the % in a general sense. It's about dollars. 66% isn't even an exact number, it's a point being made.

I own a pizzeria and used to own a bowling alley. My typically markup is about 330%. Markups (as a percentage) are always higher when the item sale price is lower. I'm not selling $500 pizzas anymore than the gun store is selling $20 guns.
 
fair prices & decent customer service(competent staff) isn't asking for a lot in 2014.
It depends on the definition of "fair." If the consumer insists on paying pennies over wholesale, something has to give.

A good example is a company called BrandSmart. Electronics are dirt cheap there, but if I expect any kind of credible guidance or advice, I'm in the wrong place. I don't get to gripe; I made a choice.
 
Did you get to handle the rifle you are wanting to purchase from buds while you were at the LGS? My LGS ask $40 for transfers which I thought was high. I know of some that only charge $10 but its a 60 mile round trip compared to the 20 mile round trip to the LGS and back.


I've had a similar experiance at the gun show where I found a spam can of 7.62×39, $140 for 660 rounds. One of the vendors at the show lives near my home, hes actually one of my customers. I own a gas station/ convenience store. Well I asked if he would match the other vendors price, I would of liked to give him my money over this other vendor I never meet. Well he said he would do $7 a box of Tula ($7x 33 boxes of 20 rounds in a box equals 660 rounds for $241. :eek: I said thanks walked away and bought the spam can. it was at the Wanenmacher gun show.

People tell me all the time that Walmart sells so and so for this many dollars. I tell them I know because that is where I bought it, then I give them directions to the nearest walmart which is 12 miles away. They usually dont remind me anymore after that.
 
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Most of the LGS around here will not even come off sticker price 5% much less come close to a online store pricing.

Ive tried to do most of my business locally but 90% of my purchases are online now or used from individuals.

I would not mind paying $50 more for a firearm locally but that's about my limit when I can pay $20 for a FFL transfer and ship one in and still save $50~100.
 
I do like to spend my money at local shops, and not necessarily for the guns. Its nice to be able to compare holsters, slings, and optics, buy small quanities of ammo, etc. I don't mind paying a reasonable premium for this service either.

That being said, while I understand he is in business to make a profit, I'm in the business of keeping myself profitable. That means not paying $500 for a 300 dollar gun. I certainly wouldn't pay $50k for a $30k car to keep the local Ford dealership in business.

While I'm sure that the LGS i was talking about may well just sell those rifles to some sucker(s), he probably won't get the opportunity to sell me ammo, scopes, holsters, or guns. And while I respect his right to run his business any way he sees fit, I find it hard to comprehend.
 
I'm a small bussiness owner also and I buy all my guns from buds or kentucky gun.A 10-15 percent mark-up is fair on a new gun-because at the end of the day there not working on 10-15 percent.Lets average out-guns-ammo-reloading supplies-gun care products-range income-gun smith charges-mark up on used guns and trade ins.so at the end of the day they probably finish at 25-30 percent markup.
10%-payroll
10%-overhead(rent-electric-gas-phone......)
5-10% owner pay and or profit
Make no mistakes about it I've been in bussiness for myself in retail for 20 years and there are fair owners and there are greedy owners.
The fair ones who are happy with there 5-10% stick around the others dont last long!!!
 
I say this as a small business owner...

I really don't understand how anyone can suggest that we should pay some small gun shop a 66% premium because he's a "small business" or a "local guy".

Tough luck. Free enterprise rules the day. He can write a price tag for whatever he wants but I'm not paying a 66% premium. I'm the buyer, I set the prices.

A $50 transfer fee is STUPID. Prices in this area are high and I don't recall running across one who charged more than $35 for a transfer, most are $25.

The buyer does NOT always set the prices.

Free market is a 2-way street. You as the consumer/buyer can set the price you want to pay, but will not always be setting the final price. If a gun in a LGS $500 i.e. Glock19 Gen4, you may not necessarily be able to get it for $400 if thats all you want to pay. The seller/owner also dictates their bottom line, or else they go under. Don't want to pay it? Then you have the option go shop elsewhere of course.

You can't dictate paying $800 for a Colt6920 at Walmart.. they'll probably laugh at you. Or pay $800 for that $1k LED tv, etc etc. even if thats really how much it costs wholesale.

I'm also a previous small business owner (although I offered services), but the practice is just the same. If a contract/service I offer costs $500 and the client only wants to pay me $350, then tough luck I'm not doing the job for less than what it really costs. I have to make some profit, and also have expenses to pay that indirectly affects the cost. Even if I buy a product I need to use for the job at $10, I probably have to sell that at an increased cost of $15-20. Why? Because it takes me time and gas to purchase that product elsewhere.

There are overhead costs of running a business--I'm sure you know this as a business owner yourself.

There's a middle ground called negotiation, but that is not always available everywhere. You can probably negotiate at a gun show or at some gun shops, but not all of them. You can't negotiate prices at big box stores like BassPro, Gander, etc. Usually what the price tag on an item is, thats what you have to pay.
 
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You all must have some terrible gun shops in your areas. All my LGS beat Bud's pricing, one of them in particular generally beats it badly (by $100 or more).
 
Whenever I'm looking at buying ANYTHING online, if I know I can get it in town, I'll walk into a few shops and say "I want X. I know I can get it online for Y but I'd prefer to give cash to a local business. How close can you get?" and decide from there.
I've had some places tell me (politely) to buy it online as they can't get close, others have bet what I'd have paid online. Paid NZ$500 for a Garmin GPSmap 62S that online was going for $520 online-that was their retail, no haggling. Don't get me wrong I've bought a lot of stuff off dx.com which is very cheap but about a month to arrive but I am willing to pay a reasonable premium for instant gratification and the knowledge that if I have an issue I can walk into a local store.
 
I'm a small bussiness owner also and I buy all my guns from buds or kentucky gun.A 10-15 percent mark-up is fair on a new gun-because at the end of the day there not working on 10-15 percent.Lets average out-guns-ammo-reloading supplies-gun care products-range income-gun smith charges-mark up on used guns and trade ins.so at the end of the day they probably finish at 25-30 percent markup.
10%-payroll
10%-overhead(rent-electric-gas-phone......)
5-10% owner pay and or profit
Make no mistakes about it I've been in bussiness for myself in retail for 20 years and there are fair owners and there are greedy owners.
The fair ones who are happy with there 5-10% stick around the others don't last long!!!

There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.

5-10% owner pay OR profit?? They are NOT the same thing if you are running a business.

- Profit is money used to maintain and grow the business
- Owner pay is whatever the owner decides to take as his pay and in many cases they take much less than minimum wage considering they work 80+hours a week, every week all year long.

And here is where I really want you to explain yourself, what are "greedy owners"? Also, what is your business?

Am I greedy because I want a bigger/nicer home for my family?

Am I greedy because I want to go hunting and fishing in Alaska every year and I manage my business in a manner that allows me to do that?

Am I greedy because I want a second home?

The answer to all of those questions is "NO". My customers get what they pay for, I pay myself as much as possible, treat my employees great, and guess what, I'm raising my prices again this year because the economy is getting worse and good employees are impossible to find.

I own a powerwashing business, I am the most expensive in town AND I tell my customers that right up front so I don't have to listen to the whining from sticker shock. My employees start at 50% above min. wage (about 30% of gross sales) and if they stick around (good employees are impossible to find) they can earn more than $25/hr. I can charge the most because I am the best, I provide high quality service based around customer satisfaction.

One guy mentioned owning a pizza place - I live in a tourist area with a pizza joint on almost every corner. A single slice can run anywhere from $1 to $7 or more, for just one slice… The more expensive ones provide much better service and a better tasting slice cooked in a cleaner environment. If anything, I consider the less expensive joints to be greedier because they don't spend the money on providing a better service or higher quality slice. Even though they are busy, they are ripping people off.

As far as gun sales go, a new gun will vary in cost from manuf.>distributor and from dist. > retailer based on bulk purchases and annual purchases. If you move more volume you will usually pas less for each piece. Small LGS's don't have the ability to sell high volume new weapons unless the secure a contract with the LEO's or some other group. Even then they are usually limited to the discounted pricing on just that one specific weapon. Their money makers are used weapons which they usually don't buy unless they can at least double their money by selling at a used price.
 
Guess I'm just lucky. One LGS does transfers for no cost - others vary from $25 to $50. You've got to shop around.
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
A $50 transfer fee is STUPID. Prices in this area are high and I don't recall running across one who charged more than $35 for a transfer, most are $25.
$50 for transfers has been the going price around here for years. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone doing them for $25 other than for close friends or repeat customers.
 
Justice06RR said:
The buyer does NOT always set the prices.

An individual buyer can not directly control the prices but it IS the buyers who control the prices. They control the very existence of the product. That's why some products disappear from the market. The buyers stop buying them at viable prices. It's not because the sellers and manufacturers don't want to sell them anymore, it's because people won't pay enough for them. The buyers are in control.

Why was 22LR ammo available for $15/500 until this panic began and now people are paying $150? Do you think the sellers just didn't want to charge $150 before but now they do? Of course not. They were always willing to charge $150. They would charge $1500 if they could but the buyers won't let them.

It's not a matter of "fair" or "greedy", it's a matter of what buyers are willing to pay.
 
Lgs needs to provide a reason to shop there, just like any other small business. It likely won't be pricing or quantity/variety. Depending on where you live proximity/convenience may be enough, but it's not for me. That only leaves customer service. If I don't get good customer service, I'm not going back and there is only so much I will pay for cs.
 
I hardly ever buy anything from gun stores these days. Most of my purchases are from gunbroker or gun shows. I don't even like to go into small gun stores because they never have anything worth looking at and I don't like to chit-chat, especially when the prices are absurd or the product is mostly crap.
 
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