Lets talk wildcats and odd cartridges

W

WyomingWhitetail

New member
ok so the more i mess with guns the more i love odd, outdated and wildcatted chamberings. Currently im building a 6.5-06 on a mauser (commonly excepted wildcat) and a 219 zipper on a marlin lever action (not really a wildcat just old and forgotten). Ive also been looking at wildcats based on 30-40 krag for a use in a future Mosin Nagant sporter project (6.5 krag, 25 krag improved, etc), and i have a ruger pistol possible project using a 44 special case necked down to .308. I also have a deep desire to build a 219 zipper improved, 219 donaldson wasp or something similar. I know there has to be some more people out there that like the weird stuff so stand up and show yourselves. I would like to hear what everyones favorite wildcat/old/outdated/underrated cartridge is and some information on it like whats its based on and maybe some comparison to other cartridges. Some of the ones that ive read about that really interest me are the 25 krag improved (30-40 necked down and blown out), the 219 donaldson wasp (shortened and blown out 219 zipper), 22 long/short snapper (shortened 22 hornet not much info out there on this one). Would also like to hear some from the big bore guys. So show me some cartridges ive never heard of before.
 
My favorite changes as my customers ask me. Currently I am building a 22-6mm TTH, recently I built a 6mm-06, a 22-44 for a Contender, Improved 218 Bee, and I am serioulsy looking at a 219 Zipper also. For your M-N project, I would suggest either a 22-X54Rmm, or a 6mm-X54Rmm. It would give you the versatility of varminting or deer hunting.
 
A .224 bullet in a 44 Remington Magnum case, 30 degree shoulder. It's in a single shot. Customer wanted something different, short, and rimmed. After we rejected the 22 Hornet and 218 Bee, we talked about 5.6X42R (basically a rimmed 222, we would have built it on a 357 Max case) we started getting a little weird. He wanted short-fat for efficiency, so we talked about 45 Colt necked down, but it has a very narrow rim for extraction, so we talked about the 44 Mag case. Should be somewhere around 222 velocity. So now we have a reamer on the way and dies in the works. See how easy wildcatting can be?
 
hmm that sounds like a fun round. I myself have a 44 special necked down to 30 cal that i want to experiment and build into something just not sure what yet.
 
I saw at a gun store the other day a 20mm case necked down to a .50 :eek:. What I think would be cool is a .50 BMG case necked to a .308.
 
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Here's a book that belongs in this thread. (Copyright 1959) It's got cartridges in it that most have never heard of. --- .25 Souper, .333 O.K.H.,.285 Luft Magnum, and my favorite- .240 Page Super Pooper.:rolleyes:

It's a neat old book, and I'd sell it for --- Naaahh, maybe not. jd
 
My former neighbor (a gunsmith) was building a Ruger #1 on the .257 Roberts Improved (Ackley). Really neat.

The Hornady Handbook and Nosler Reloading Guide show maximum reloads for the .257 Improved (either version) achieving muzzle velocities (MV) of about 3600 fps with a 75 grain bullet, 3400-3500 fps with an 85-87 grain bullet, 3200 fps with a 100 grain bullet, 2900-3000 fps with a 115-117 grain bullet, and 2900 fps with a 120 grain bullet.
 

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For your M-N project, I would suggest either a 22-X54Rmm, or a 6mm-X54Rmm. It would give you the versatility of varminting or deer hunting.
Click to expand...

That would also negate the need for magazine mods.


I've been considering keeping my eyes open for a thoroughly shot-out M38 or 91/30, to simply throw a .308" barrel on. It would greatly improve the versatility of the cartridge, through bullet selection; and a custom throat could aid accuracy with 150-165 gr spitzers, while still allowing heavier stuff to be used.


As for wildcats, I'm a big fan of .400 Whelen (and .411 Hawk). The problem is, I'm already set up for .35 Whelen (even though I don't own one :rolleyes:). So, the .35 Whelen is likely to be built before the .400. I also, for some reason, have a deep love of the 8mm bore size. However, every time I dream up a new 8mm wildcat, I remember how horrible 8mm bullet selection is in the U.S. You've got bullets built for the 8mm Rem Mag, and bullets built for low-pressure 8x57mm loads - essentially nothing in between. ...And several of those bullets are not the advertised .323" diameter. They often run .319-.321".

I'm a 'practical wildcat' kind of guy, though. I don't lust after cartridges that can push a 107 gr 6mm projectile to 4,000 fps. I tend to dream up 'intermediate' cartridges. Something lobbing a bullet of average construction at an average velocity - but in a unique case.

Or... I want something that launches a bullet in the velocity window somewhere between pistols and rifles. - Like '06 shortened to 1.450", straight-walled (slight taper), and reamed to .458" (can also be seen as a .45 Win Mag lengthened by .250", or .458x1.5" if you want a belt).

One of these days, I'll finally have the cash to actually have some reamers made. The gunsmithing expenses and reloading tool expenses are easily passable with the wife. It's purchasing the project rifles and parts that is difficult to get approval for.
 
One more thing...

Ive also been looking at wildcats based on 30-40 krag for a use in a future Mosin Nagant sporter project (6.5 krag, 25 krag improved, etc),
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The shoulder on the Krag is too far forward to work with an unmodified M-N box magazine. With the wildcats, things are even worse. The shoulders are even farther forward, and even larger diameter (.30-40 Krag has a very long neck). If you want to avoid magazine mods, the x54R parent case is the best choice (with fairly standard, or smaller, body dimensions, and no larger than .32 caliber projectiles).
 
The entire line of wildcats from the 06 case are of particular interest to me. I do have an 06 I don't need and I do need a twenty something. In particular the 6.5- 06 seems awesome. I'd think about the 8mm-06 more but my .338 Win Mag fills the bigger bore niche just fine. Yesterday's wildcat is todays big selling factory chambering when the stars align. The 25-06, 44 mag 270 etc had to start somewhere.
 
OK,I'll play.
If you need something a little shorter than the Krag,but otherwise pretty much the same,look at the 303 brit.
I assume you are aware of PO Ackley's Handbook for Shooters,vol 1 and 2.
Full of descriptions of all the wildcats imagined back then.I have never owned a 220 swift but I came up with a bag of brass once,which I passed on to a Swift owner,but maybe necked up to 6mm/.257/6.5 and an improved job done to it? Its got some rim for something like an MOA falling block handgun.
I know the day of building on Mauser Milsurps was yesterday,but the standard 8x57 mag box is a bit short for 30-06.Why not take advantage of the 8x57 case? Like neck the 8x57 down to .308,or up to .338.I think a .338-8mm AI would be fun.
Along the same line of using a mauser length box,the 376 Steyr is there,and Hornady makes brass.
I have 20 years on my 257 AI,it still shoots,but I expect the bbl is tired.I think it was Warren Page came up with the .260 AAR,(all around rifle.) Think .257AI necked up to .264.that .007 gives a whole new ball game of tight twist and long bullets the .257 does not offer.
One more.Rim dia between a .44 Mag and 45 colt is about the same,they both feed through the same mag tube.
How about a modernized 44-40? Maybe even neck down .454 casull,
Make the neck length for at least a 300 gr bullet.
You will notice I do not propose anything too radical.I am not into overbore ,and I like my cartridge ideas to work with the rifle design with minimal work.
Example,anything built on an 8x57 case will work fine in a 98 mauser.Use a .308 case,you have to tickle some.
 
I have sort of a love affair with the 44-40. Wouldn't mind a 38-40, or maybe come up with a 32-40 or maybe even 35-40, all based on necking the 44-40 down. I wouldn't mind seeing a 30-30 necked up to 35 and improved propably wouldnt leave much neck
 
I have a pre-WWI rifle in an obsolete version of 9.3x64 (based on the 30-06 case widened to .366, not the Brenneke cartridge of the same name). I'm thinking of investing in a reamer and have a modern action chambered in that.
 
I run a few cartridges that are pretty much still wildcats. My favorite has to be the 6x47 which is a .222 Remington Mag necked up to a 6mm bullet. This was an old benchrest round that did make it into production from Federal, but the 6mm PPC and BR killed it off quickly. With 55 grain bullets it is killer on prairie dogs and hopefully coyotes. With a 70 grain bullet I was able to take a pronghorn buck just over 300 yards. Plus the .222 RM case feeds slick from a .223 or .204 Ruger action without any modification.

I have an 8mm-06 and .338-06, probably going to change the 8mm to something else or sell it. Both are good cartridges but I like the .338-06 much better. A-Square did standardize the cartridge and Weatherby chambered it for a few years. It neve did really catch on and they dropped it, but I think Cooper is building a rifle in this cartridge. It is pretty much hand load only, as the ammunition is expensive and rare. A-Square and Nosler do make factory loads there might be a couple more I'm missing.

The largest bore I'm running in another rare cartridge is the .375 JDJ. This is a .444 cartridge necked down to a .375 diameter. I'm taking my Encore rifle to hunt bear in Alaska next month then I'll probably sell off the barrel and dies. It is a fun little rifle but I like my .375 Ruger better.

I've messed with the .280 GNR in pistol form. This is a Garry Reeder creation which is a .405 Win necked down to 7mm. I was getting 7mm Rem Mag velocities out of a 17" barrel and was shooting it as a pistol on an Encore frame. The recoil was too much for me to take so I tried putting it on a rifle frame, but the the muzzle blast from the brake was too close to my face and would blow my hat off and you could feel the heat. So I traded it off as well, couldn't be happier about my decision.

I just picked up a .223 AI barrel that I'm thinking of putting on one of my Stevens actions. Just found a good deal on one and thought why not? So I'll let you know about that later.

I've shot a .30-30 AI in a Contender pistol, and it was pretty impressive. My buddy in NY came out and shot a pronghorn buck a little over 200 yards with a 14" barrel. IIRC he was getting 2500 fps from the 14" pistol barrel with 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. After that hunt was over we shot a few prairie dogs with it just to shoot up his remaining ammunition. He had a Burris 2-12 AO pistol scope on it and I was able to take a few PD's past 200 yards with it.

If I were going to do the AI in a .30-30 I'd look for an old Savage 340 bolt action to run it in, or maybe an old shooter grade M54 Winchester. You might be able to modify a small ring Mauser with a single stack magazine and do it as well. I have a Remington M788 .30-30 that I've considered running the AI chamber in but my magazine lenght is my biggest problem. I just can't run any long spitzer bullets in it, 125 and 130 grain are about the longest bullets I can fit without going to a FP or RN design.

.30-30 and .30-40 AI chambers have always got me thinking. If I could find a good P14 or Siamese mauser sporter I'd probably rebarrel it to a .30-40 AI. I just think they are cool but there really isn't much reason to run either, other than for the fun factor.
 
I've shot a 309 Jdj in a contender. It was fun but a little nasty to shoot. In a rifle I think it would have been ok. The one really like was the 30 alaska
 
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