Lets talk about 9mm ball ammo.

Full penetration with bullets is spelled v e r s a t i l i t y (to me), although o p t i o n s is an acceptable variant. If a man with 9mm ball put one right through the centerline exactly where a the HP would hit, the HP that opened would make a bigger hole but both would (have the same chance of) put the BG down.

There is an argument that a fmj can pass close to something important and miss it where a HP that expanded would be bigger and nick the artery and you win over ball...However, the argument could also be made that ball is cheaper so one could be even a better shot with it than the high priced HP.

Since you want to keep it on 9mm I'll say that if you use ball ammo you have a more versatile gun than with HP's. The odds of you actually having to shoot someone AND over penetrate them AND hit an innocent are astronomical. Ball ammo is a very viable choice for general use including SD.
 
semantics

Is ball ammo really that bad for self defence?
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It's bad. Bad enough that hunters don't use it, nor virtually any American LE outfit. Not even every US military unit uses it.

Pro: -makes a hole
-offers a oft-reliable feed profile
-cheaper than non-ball
-readily available
-beats throwing rocks

Con: -makes a hole
-can make too long a hole



I know, just the internet......
 
for example

I hit a groundhog in its body at less than 20 ft with a 225g LTC .452" bullet. The animal did not react.
I hit it again.
It began to move away.
I hit it again.
It continued its movement.
And again.
And again.

I am firmly convinced one hit from my 'normal' 115g JHP launched at 1270fps (or more, based on load) would have caused it to cease movement immediately.
 
I hit a groundhog in its body at less than 20 ft with a 225g LTC .452" bullet. The animal did not react.
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Ive shot a couple of shaky looking raccoons and skunks with 230 grain Hydra Shoks at about the same distance with the same result. Had to shoot them one to two more times to kill them too.

Some critters arent impressed until they are dead, and thats why you just keep shooting until they are.
 
Remember, a HP that expands will not penetrate as deeply as a ball. Deep enough? Maybe. My first round in the barrel is a HP. The rest are ball.
 
Itgs where you hit them, more than what you hit them with...

and always has been.

how many hunters do you know who use jacketed ball ammo?
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Most (if not all) states game laws specifically prohibit the use of FMJ ammo for hunting game animals. And for good reason.

I am firmly convinced one hit from my 'normal' 115g JHP launched at 1270fps (or more, based on load) would have caused it to cease movement immediately.
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I am firmly convinced that if you hit the animal in the right place, it will cease movement immediately. It isn't the velocity, or the bullet as much as it is placement.

I once met a skunk who I watched take 3 hits through the body from a .357mag, fired from a carbine. Velocity was well above anything you would get from a 9mm. Speed alone is nothing. They were bad hits (too far back). The first two didn't even cause the skunk to react. The third must have clipped the spine, as the back legs stopped working.

The shooter, apparently having lost confidence (no doubt due to his clearly demonstrated lack of ability) requested me to dispatch the skunk. One 250gr LSWC @1070fps from a .45 Colt (what I was wearing at the time) ended the skunk instantly. Of course, I did shoot it in the head, which just might have had something to do with the effectiveness over the hits from the .357.

Put the bullet in the right spot, it works. Period.

Our military uses FMJ for two reasons, one important, the other just nice. Complying with the Hague Convention rules about not using bullets intended to cause undue suffering is the nice reason. FMJ feeds better than all other bullet profiles, that the important reason. If it didn't, we wouldn't use it.

One reason FMJ in 9mm is still used so much by everyone is that until fairly recently, reliable JHP bullets didn't exist for the 9mm. A jhp must feed reliably, penetrate enough, and expand. Until these conditions were met, using FMJ was actually superior.

Today, we have jhp bullets that do perform reliably. For self defense, they are better than fmj.

Don't think the military usage of fmj is because it is the most effective bullet design. It isn't. That's why fmj is not used for game hunting. Remember the military does not put the same priority on protecting the life of its members as you or I do on protecting ourselves and families. They don't, and never have.
Consider FMJ to be a minimum acceptable level of bullet performance. Anything that improves effectiveness above that is a better choice for the defensive shooter or hunter. Not nearly as important to the military.
 
I believe that some militaries, though hardly all, do put a high priority on reducing casualites, sometimes to the point of making units ineffective in combat. It is entirely possible, for instance, that air-dropped units could have prevented the escape of Bin Laden all those many years ago, yet none were so employed because of expected high casualites. Airborne units take casualites even in training. But that's history now. However, you still hear the expression "force protection" a little too often.

One reason that full metal jacket pistol ammunition might be a better choice for the military is because any likely target is going to be covered in web gear and equipment and, these days, even body armor. They need all the penetration they can get out of a bullet. But for all that, I wonder just how many enemies ever get shot with pistols anyway? That just show the upside down focus civilians have with regards to how militaries work.
 
If you are having second thoughts on the effectiveness fo the 9mm

don't worry. True, there are still a few uniformed still here, but forgein as well as domestic creeps know how well 9X19 works coming from the GGs.

As far as 45ACP Critter Control...the reason it takes mulitiple shots is because the animals can't read the ammo box and don't know they are supposed to die immediately after the first shot.
 
As far as 45ACP Critter Control...the reason it takes mulitiple shots is because the animals can't read the ammo box and don't know they are supposed to die immediately after the first shot.
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HA! That's awesome. It's also very true. Animals don't surrender or give up. People will. Animals have a survival instinct that the "logic" in the human brain counters. "I shouldn't live through this" is probably what stops most people who are shot.
 
Some people arent impressed either.

If you are with your favorite load, still better to just shoot them to the ground, just to be sure. Maybe they will see the light. :)
 
Ball ammo is all that feeds in my Tec-9M zombie suppression gun.

So ya, I know they aren't going to expand and there isn't going to be any of that supposed "Hyrdo-static shock" and temporary wound cavitation... so I just shoot 3 times the amount of bullets that I would normally shoot, given that any single FMJ I fire is not going to be a 95% one-shot-stop proven street stopper...

I figure even if they only rate 33% one shot stops if I shoot three of them then thats like over 95% or something like that...
 
Back in the dark days before effective hollow points, when this subject was discussed it was generally held that 38 Special and 9mm Ball (158g RNL & 124g FMJ) stopped about 50% of the time. It never was a case of 9mm (or 38 Spl) not stopping at all, just how often you could count on it. Back then 45 ACP was the choice of many because with Ball (230g FMJ) you almost doubled the probability of a stop.

It's worth noting, the above comments are about "stopping" not killing. Everything is lethal, even 22s. Lethality isn't the question but stopping the assailant from doing what justified the use of deadly force in the first place.

Dave
 
Some shortened vesions of statements from Mike Ayers book "The Complete Gun Owner". "At Smoke Bomb Hill (home of the Green Berets) in the early sixties most of us seleced the Browning Hi Power over the Colt .45 for our primary personal handgun. We did so for a number of reasons. Feed back from veterans from W.W. II (up to the conflict they were engaged in) found their was little difference in the terminal effects of the two rounds. Immediate engagements told us the statements were accurate. We often had to deploy in civilian clothes.Much weight was given to the importance of the handgun. Most liked the higher capacity of the Hi Power.Medical research indicated that their was little difference in wounding power between the two. In other words caliber was a non-issue".
I was around at that time and most who carried felt that the .45 Auto or the
.357 Magnum revolver were the only handguns worth carrying. It turns out in fact this was and is a myth still being perpetuated today. To the point of stupidity. "A .45 hitting you in the thumb will spin you around and the shock will stop your heart" were the type of statements often mouthed and still repeated. In the light of reality both form experience and medical information the two do about the same thing. If you believe in Mr. Marshall's stats they both run about 60%. Or Dr. Fackler states that a doctor or medic doesn't know if someone's been hit by a 9mm or .45 until the bullet is removed.
Tissue closes rapidly over a hangun wound. The temporary stretch cavity is no enough to significantly effect wounding. The permanent cavity ends up smaller than the bullets diameter (except in certain non elastic tissue) as the tissue closes around the wound to stem blood flow. These myths that are perpeuated about any handguns stopping power get peopke to believe a certain caliber handgun will save them. No hanguns caliber can save you. Effective use of whatever caliber you have is what saves you. Are some bullets better than others? Sure. A .45 if you hit with it is better than a .22. A miss with either will do you no good.
The thing people don't understand is that if a .45 saves your life you think it's the best thing since sliced bread. All over th world peoples lives that are saved by 9mm, .38, or whatever feel the same about their gun/caliber choice. Those whose calibers (.45 or whatever) fail to save them have very little to say for obvious reasons. They are dead! I just se too many people at the range that think their .45 or their particular brand of ammo in their favorite caliber will save them. It's allot easier to believe in a caliber than actually putting in the time, money and practice it takes to get good with any weapon. Don't mean to jump on you personally. But lots of people are shocked when someone is unimpressed by their caliber/round/weapon choice when hit and keep on coming. Handguns just aren't very good at causing people to cease aggression.
 
eyesocket not

I placed my shots where I expect the heart to reside.

I still think that groundhog would have exploded with a body hit from any of my fast-stepping .355" HPs.
 
As far as 45ACP Critter Control...the reason it takes multiple shots is because the animals can't read the ammo box and don't know they are supposed to die immediately after the first shot.
True to a point.:confused: I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it really does not matter if you use a .22 rim fire or a .50 S&W. What is important is SHOT PLACEMENT! a round placed in a vital area will kill. My best advice practice practice and practice again until the action becomes automatic no thinking involved. The second would be empty the clip into the target! More is better
bigger is better but if all you have is a 9mm learn how to use it correctly.
 
...that groundhog would have exploded with a body hit from any of my fast-stepping .355" HPs
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Knew a hunter that would shoot them from behind with a .22 mag, made their eyeballs pop out!
 
If the military uses FMJ and are effective with it, why shouldn't I also use it?
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Two considerations: First, the military have to use it by treaty without consideration for effectiveness. Second, the distances and other conditions of battle are more often not the same as a close-range self-defense civilian scenario.
 
I still think that groundhog would have exploded with a body hit from any of my fast-stepping .355" HPs.
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To properly explode a groundhog, you need a fast stepping bullet, faster than any conventional handgun. We call them varmint rifles for a reason. You don't get "explosive" results on something the size of a woodchuck until you get velocity up close to 3000fps. Your fast stepping 9mm has only a fraction of the speed/energy required. Create a massive wound? Yes, provided the bullet expanded, and on a small bodied creature (compared to a human), most pistol bullets will not expand! You need a varmint bullet for that, and the ultra thin jacket of the varmint bullet means it is a poor choice for self defense (from a handgun which has only a fraction of the power of a rifle).

If the military uses FMJ and are effective with it, why shouldn't I also use it?
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FMJ has proven itself, historically, to be the least effective bullet in personal defense situations. This by no means implies that it won't do the job, only that other designs (JHP) have proven statistically superior in stopping power.

Another thing to consider, is the the military doesn't work alone. We do. When we, as civilians, get into a self defense gunfight, it is a very, very, very rare occurrance that we have squad members nearby, and radio backup, up to and including air strikes and artillery is just not an option. The best we can manage, and it is seldom that we can do it beforehand, is to call 911.

Since you are on your own, why not seek to maximize your odds by using the most effective bullet you can?
 
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