Let's Socialize Legal Representation

First time you've said that. why you don't recognixe that as such I don't know.

No it's not. Post #8.

And I've asked several times, where does Tort solve the problem? Occam's law is applicable how?

I was unclear here. Was invoking Occams Razer to indicate that there is a simpler solution via legislation rather than putting up a large infrastructure in place. Tort reform is simply part of it.

Legal proceedings aren't the issue, LEGAL REPRESENTATION IS. (why I have to say this again I don't know).

Nope. I'm perfectly happy with how legal representation is handled. If you've got a problem with it that's your problem.

If you actually believe GWB is the cause of this your demonstrating some very deluded reasoning. The 'GWB is the cause of all the woes of America' are allotting to his a super human power. You must find him to be quite an impactive and influential President.

What is the antecedent for the word "this"? and why would you think I blame GWB for the cause of anything health related? I use his words to show that DEFINITIVELY we already have socialized medicine in this country. Thus pointing out the irony of your entire argument. But alas, I was too subtle.

The costs in lost freedoms and rights and to children raised without imprisoned parents is incalculable. How many dollars is that worth?
The bulk of people in prisons is poor and/or minority. Is this because they are more criminal or because they lacked access to Quality Legal Representation?

The bulk of people without health care are poor. I don't know if they are also minority, is that due to inherent poor health or due to lack of quality health care.

So you have no idea. Can you even venture a guess as to how many people are affected?

The parallels abound. One thing is certain. Both are crucial when needed. If one deems socialization due that then they both do.

See, the problem where we are not meeting is that I feel that the "minimum" of public defenders is adequate, but that emergency rooms are not.

Please demonstrate how quality legal representation doesn't rise to the level of importance that health care does.

I don't need to demonstrate. I feel that I've made my case and it has fallen upon deaf ears. Frankly, I should have stopped when I realized you clearly didn't get that you were presenting a false analogy. So much for chasing red herrings, huh?
 
You have yet to make a case past 'I feel the minimum of a public defender is adequate. And frankly that is no case.

My basis was "You can't legislate a cure for the flu or cancer." You CAN legislate limits on legal proceedings. This is where the analogy breaks down. (why I even say this again I don't know, you will not recognize it as such)

First time you've said that. why you don't recognize that as such I don't know.

Is it beyond you to make an intellectually honest statement. Never mind. History speaks for it's self......

It was the first time you said THIS....
First time you've said that. why you don't recognize that as such I don't know.
before you only said.......
You can't legislate a cure for the flu or cancer
Your expectation that someone could gather the rest (the part you said only once still) is ludicrous. Then to fain exasperation with the 'I don't know WHY I have to keep say it' was the snide thing from earlier.

Here's a chance. COGENTLY make your alleged stated case. Or is it that your happy with the minimum level of representation of public defender.

If that is the case I have to say that lacks respect for the basic American value of the right to representation, innocent until proven guilty AND equal justice under the law.

Like health care, the current legal system is broken. And if the solution is socialization for one then it must be for both. The very freedom of every American is at stake.

To not care for the rights of those accused is callous and down right mean.
 
-Quality Legal Representation and Health care weigh directly on quality of life when they are needed.

-Most people will need an attorney and a doctor at some point in their lives and a competent one will effect their life for it's duration afterword.

-Quality Legal Representation is priced out of the reach of the average American leaving the to rely on legal aid and public defenders like ERs and health clinics.

-A poor result from sub-standard albeit credentialed legal or medical professionals could even cost you your life.

The parallels abound. I'm sure more can be thought of by others.

For a 'flawed analogy' there seems far more parallels then not. It seems that it tracks very well and given no rebuttal (past simply claiming it to be flawed) I find it a near mandate it be done as much as health care.
 
Like the Oil Industry and Health care System, the greed of attorneys HAS to be brought to bear by the Federal Government. Each of has been impacted by such horror stories and each of us is at risk of falling victim to this predatory and under regulated system.

Every American DESERVES quality legal representation and it's about time our government recognize that.

Screw it, lets just socialize everything, and let big government be in charge of every aspect of our lives! Heck, forget a fair trial- you will be stuck where the system wants you then.

Smaller Government = Better Government
 
It'll never happen - Congress is full of lawyers, and they won't do anything to reduce their potential earnings.
 
Prompting a debate vs. baiting an arguement......point of view I guess.

The objective is to parse out a need for one but not the other OR recognize a need for both or neither.

Often it takes applying the same premise to another parallel application to reveal the validity of that premise.The analogy is made to vet those premises and reveal how appropriate or misguided they are.

Agree or disagree but make an argument for your position either way. Simply stating it to be invalid or valid without defending that position does nothing to validate or strike down a premise.

Both have quite valid parallels as stated. One is confronted with why one and not the other OR why both or neither.
 
-Quality Legal Representation and Health care weigh directly on quality of life when they are needed.

Except preventative Health Care is very effective at lowering overall costs. Preventative legal representation is what? Should I break the law or not? Unless you are embroiled in a legal situation (which kind of means it ISN'T preventative) most preventative legal steps are very cheap. In fact, in many situation can be handled via phone calls and emails. Not so with medicine with consumables things (pills, blood work, x-rays, etc..) That these cost money (and the retail cost to you is MUCH higher than the wholesale price) means that people are putting off preventative care until they have no choice.

-Most people will need an attorney and a doctor at some point in their lives and a competent one will effect their life for it's duration afterword.

So? Doctors and lawyers are both human beings. Is that a parallel, too? Count the number of times you've needed an attorney versus a doctor. Are they equal? Even in the same ballpark as you claim?

-Quality Legal Representation is priced out of the reach of the average American leaving the to rely on legal aid and public defenders like ERs and health clinics.

I will address this below. Wonderful falsehood.

-A poor result from sub-standard albeit credentialed legal or medical professionals could even cost you your life.

You are putting those on equal footing? Comparatively, there are astronomically higher odds of losing your life to bad medicine than bad law. You are just throwing whatever you can out there without listening to yourself...

The parallels abound. I'm sure more can be thought of by others.

For a 'flawed analogy' there seems far more parallels then not. It seems that it tracks very well and given no rebuttal (past simply claiming it to be flawed) I find it a near mandate it be done as much as health care.

There are lots of parallels, but then one could draw parallels between matchbox car and a Toyota Corolla but you wouldn't require a driver's license to own a matchbox car.

Here are a few reasons that the analogy fails, and you find yourself grasping a square peg (which fits very well into the square hole thankyouverymuch)

- Medical pricing has driven the price out of reach, not so with legal. There is very good competition out there in the legal field. How many places can you go to get a broken leg fixed? Cancer dealt with? Your appendix removed? Very few. Do these places compete against each other?

- How often does it occur that someone is taken unconscious into an ambulance and emergency medical care is provided? Guess what happens when you are taken to the nearest and not the one your insurance covers? That same is not true for legal (or if you can find a situation, clearly not at anywhere near the same frequency). A single payer system solves this.

I'm not even going to go on. I'm sure your next step is "but its a hole, why can't I fit my square peg into it? It's got depth! It's in the ground! Parallels abound!" yet again.
 
One is confronted with why one and not the other OR why both or neither.

No, YOU are. Possibly because you have oversimplified the issues? But then, who can blame you in this sound bite society.
 
More snide tone and condescension. Poor cover for a delirious recitation. I imagine a guy with eyes rolling and hands all a flutter trying hard to dramatize the words he is saying to help his arguments.

First of all your apparently not aware that ER doctors and nurses are not allowed to know if a patient is insured so as to INSURE they receive the life saving care they need. Sorry, uninsured lives are treated the same.

Preventative legal service are the unheard of things like estate planning (no it's not just for the rich, grandma dies with a house that appreciated 300% or more and her kids are facing huge taxes) that survive probate, formations of wills and living trusts that survive challenges by third parties (un-named new spouse claims next of kin and takes kids inheritance or new spouse claims you wanted the plug pulled), proper insurance coverages and tax planning.

Wouldn't it be prudent to check the law before starting a small business or buying that collection of specialized firearms or signing that contract.

Few things are cheaper then preventative health care. Proper diet and exercise do the bulk of the prevention and avoiding bad habits like smoking, drinking, will greatly reduce risk and avoiding hazardous activities such as skiing, diving, climbing, and contact sports almost eliminate risks that aren't genetic.

You can't prevent death, only delay it but you can prevent being victimized by the legal system with proper legal planning, advice, and quality representation when you find yourself in a courtroom.

Aside from free will decisions to either engage in high risk activities to your health or break the law intentionally the chances are your health and legal needs will be minimum except for the incidentals. Responsible and proper behavior will reduce both dramatically.

Exposure to health risks isn't mitigated by if you have a family doctor but if it were understood that everyone had access to Quality Legal Representation infringements on your rights and challenges to your property and freedom would be greatly reduced.

There are of course some that will need a lawyer more often then most ad others that will need a doctor more but that shouldn't mean that either group be ignored. What other things impacts your future more when they are needed then legal and medical services.

If the legal system didn't have so many innocent people convicted and the system truly WAS fair and justice blind that would be one thing but unfortunately an unrepresented or poorly represented individual faces permanent life altering consequences as does a person facing a health problem not caused or enabled by their own poor choices.

Those with health or legal problems from their own free will choices to break the law or not take proper care of themselves and refrain from activities that are high risk are of course in a separate category. Drug dealers and over weight people, car thieves and drug and alcohol users, etc. Engaging in such irresponsible behavior shouldn't be the responsibility of the public. Gun collectors and dealers (even owners), home owners, and drivers along with the genetically predisposed ill DO however deserve socialized legal and health care services. They face financial devastation should they happen into circumstances beyond their control and find themselves in court or in the hospital.

Poor legal representation could land an innocent person in prison where he faces severe conditions most definitely perilous to their life as does the person facing poor medical diagnosis or treatment.

Truth is most people will not face a catastrophic disease or injury not rooted in their own health decisions any more then someone will face prison. But their are FAR more people in prison then in the hospital.......

EDIT TO ADD: And ALOT more people at the courthouses then in the emerency rooms...
 
Socialized attorneys! Great idea! In fact, we should expand the concept. Our physical health is even more important than adequate legal representation. I propose we socialize golf. It's great exercise and will lead to a healthier lifestyle. The problem is there are millions of people who cannot afford expensive golf clubs and high greens fees.

I therefore propose a set of golf clubs for every household and free play on the course at least twice weekly. Of course, we'll have to supply golf balls and golf shoes for everyone. In fact, it would be psychologically damaging and fundamentally unfair for someone to have to golf in anything but the latest golf fashions. Therefore, we must provide a liberal golf clothing allowance.

While the aim of the program is to increase exercise in Americans to make them healthier, the law requires we provide reasonable accommodation for those physically challenged. Anyone with a handicapped parking sticker would also get free use of golf carts while golfing.

Yes, we must socialize the game of golf immediately. Then we can move onto fulfill the dream of the late Janis Joplin:

Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.
My friends all drive porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
Oh Lord won't you buy me a color TV.
Dialing for dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until 3.
So oh Lord won't you buy me a color TV.
Oh lord won't you buy me a night on the town.
I'm counting on you Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round.
Oh Lord won't you buy me a night on the town.
Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
My friends all drive porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
 
First of all your apparently not aware that ER doctors and nurses are not allowed to know if a patient is insured so as to INSURE they receive the life saving care they need. Sorry, uninsured lives are treated the same.

And yet you still need to pay for it. Sorry, people pay different amounts out of pocket even when their plans are similar and insurance costs are equal. Feel free to address that point instead of ignoring it.

Preventative legal service are the unheard of things like estate planning (no it's not just for the rich, grandma dies with a house that appreciated 300% or more and her kids are facing huge taxes) that survive probate, formations of wills and living trusts that survive challenges by third parties (un-named new spouse claims next of kin and takes kids inheritance or new spouse claims you wanted the plug pulled), proper insurance coverages and tax planning.

Estate planning is a one time fixed cost in your life (with extremely trivial modifications as situations change since you are able to change it yourself). Not so with a mole that may be melanoma, a hacking cough that won't go away, eyes that increasingly go bad over time, etc etc

Insurance coverage and tax planning should not require the consult of an attorney. If your taxes are complicated enough, maybe, but then cost becomes less of a barrier.

Wouldn't it be prudent to check the law before starting a small business or buying that collection of specialized firearms or signing that contract.

Is that a choice someone is making putting them into a legal situation?
No so with high cholesterol, or high blood pressure. Family history prompts preventative care and medication to ensure these can be treated.
How about tooth sealants? In many cases, this can definitely save money in the long run. However, I can't choose to not have teeth.

Few things are cheaper then preventative health care. Proper diet and exercise do the bulk of the prevention and avoiding bad habits like smoking, drinking, will greatly reduce risk and avoiding hazardous activities such as skiing, diving, climbing, and contact sports almost eliminate risks that aren't genetic.

Eyestrain, dental issues, babies with ear infections. There are many many counterarguments.

You can't prevent death, only delay it but you can prevent being victimized by the legal system with proper legal planning, advice, and quality representation when you find yourself in a courtroom.

That is terrible. What you are saying is akin to avoiding major surgery as a 25 year old to save your life cause "you can't prevent death"

Truth is most people will not face a catastrophic disease or injury not rooted in their own health decisions any more then someone will face prison. But their are FAR more people in prison then in the hospital.......

That is the truth? Not even close. Nearly everyone will face a catastrophic disease or injury in their lives. Look it up.


Well, I'm done attempting to show you why you have posed a false analogy.
 
Yeah, well if we're going to socialize golf, I demand that we also socialize motorcycling. In these times of absurd fuel prices, what would make more sense than to have the government buy every man, woman, and child (of driving age, of course) a high-mileage motorcycle?

(See, SD? I don't know why these things happen.)

Tim
 
People make decisions that impact their health negatively. Drinking, drugs, overeating, lack of exercise, getting pregnant without the means of caring for that child or being insured for the birth and subsequent post natal care. But like the Mercedes they want the benefit without the responsibility.

Your methodology of debate was revealing. Keep it up.;)

An example:
And yet you still need to pay for it. Sorry, people pay different amounts out of pocket even when their plans are similar and insurance costs are equal. Feel free to address that point instead of ignoring it.
although your PRIOR assertion was they would be left untreated or receive less treatment which of course is wrong. That they would still have to pay is a given, you receive a service you need to pay for it right? No Mercedes today either.

The majority of health and legal problems can be avoided with responsible behavior. Ask a doctor what would bring down health costs and they will answer 'prevention' ask then what to do for pervention they will say to excercise, eat right, watch your weight, and aviod bad habits. Fat people have more health problems as do slothful (lazy/inactive) people, drinkers, drug users, smokers, sexually promiscuous, etc. They deserve WHO to pay for their choices?

There are of course people that by no fault of their own are injured or fall ill that haven't been responsible or motivated enough to earn enough to afford the least expensive insurance (critical care coverage) or chose to purchase other things instead that have again made decisions and expect others to take up the responsibility for them.

Lastly there are the truly disabled. Those born with debilitating handicaps. In my opinion they rate social support. Their families are of course the first line and then their communities. There are also a wide array of NPOs dedicated to raising money for these unfortunate people.

The legal needs, yes NEEDS, an individual will face fall in the same level of being crucial but the sell hasn't been made......yet.....to effect the common sense perspective of it like it has with health care. There are many many stories right here on this forum about lives devastated because they defended their lives with a firearm. Defense costs left individuals with nothing but their freedom. Spend the money or face prison. What to do. Your not entitled to reimbursement for legal defense costs. Civil courts maybe but criminal NOPE. That's just for self defense. Others have lost their businesses defending themselves from the ATF, others didn't have the money and have done time or now are felons for not having the money to defend themselves when they have done nothing wrong but can't afford an attorney that actually defends them.

The dismissive attitude reflects a lack of compassion for those that face such challenges. You can know the law, assert that, be RIGHT and lose. Appeals are tough to get and very difficult to win ($$$$$$$).

Legal needs are as life changing as medical ones. Hard to get around that. But the once understood sense of personal responsibility for one's own life has been lost where medical needs are concerned. Not YET so for legal needs.

It is really not societies responsibility to provide anything to anyone past life safety protection. If you are alive that life belongs to you (the definition of liberty BTW) and it's your responsibility to take care of it as much as it is your freedom to do with it what you will.

ERs and public defenders are there as a safety net but beyond that it is an individuals own responsibility to take care of yourself and your children. Failing to do that does not obligate the nation to pick up the tab. The government isn't your Mom or Dad.

Give me a lawyer AND a Doctor as my life will depend on one or the other and each can change it irrevocably forever. Either that or let me alone and pay your own bills.
 
A fair and speedy trail is Guaranteed in the Constitution. It doesnt say if you are rich and can afford a good lawyer.:eek:
Law is already socialized on the Government/court/lawmaking/ prosecution side. It should most certainly be socialized for the preventative, commercial and legal defense side. :) After all you are required to appear in court, you are required to follow legal rules and make filings in business and real estate transactions. You are required to hire an attorney at great cost for many things where you are Required to follow the law or excersize your basic rights.

You are not required to play golf, you are not required to see a doctor or seek medical treatment.

Socialize the law it makes perfect sense, and fits the constitional intent to the letter and the spirit.
 
You could theoretically "socialize" the lawyers. Just create nationwide price controls for legal services and then provide subsidies. Of course, then you'd get more litigation than ever for "tragedy of the commons" reasons.


We'd be better off just imposing the price controls. Some people want to cap the salaries of corporate officers. If the electorate will accept that concept, capping legal fees isn't much different.


Still, I suspect we're better off sticking with the price system. If we imposed price controls on legal services, the good lawyers would do something else and the bad lawyers would just take more cases and do everything even more half-ass. More bad lawyers pursuing more pointless lawsuits probably isn't the answer.


We need to rein in the lawyers, the judges, and the legislators. But I doubt we will. Obama is a symptom whether he's elected or not. The prognosis isn't good even if we get through this one.
 
Every American DESERVES quality legal representation and it's about time our government recognize that.
The only problem is that, as with all things done by the government (except that which is done for themselves), the quality of all representation would sink to the lowest common denominator, not rise to the highest. :(

And this is what is wrong with Socialized Medicine. Rather than raising the standard to the highest presently available, it would sink to the lowest standard presently available.

I don't care of you want to give people free health care. Go ahead. Just don't take my present health care away from me to do it.

Nobody in our society has a "right" to health care. Or anything else they are not willing to work for.

The US Constitution states we have a right of confrontation of witnesses, freedom of speech, the press, religion, assembly, to keep and bear arms, and against self-incrimination.

I can't seem to find either "health care" or "legal representation" in there anywhere (although the freedom from self-incrimination has been interpreted to include legal representation in criminal cases if the defendant claims to be indigent).
 
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