Let's discuss the 25-06

M

mdd

New member
I have about 300 rounds of 25-06 loaded with 115 gr nosler ballistic tips. Nosler's website gives a ballistic coefficient for this bullet at 0.453 and a sectional density of 0.249. I have two 25-06's. One is a ruger m77 mkii vt model with a 26" medium-heavy taper barrel & the other is a ruger m77 mkii sporter model with a 24" "magnum" contour barrel.
My question revolves around the lack of a heavier weight bullet in the .257 caliber. For example, the OAL of my 115's is 1.207. If say a 140 gr bullet is 18% heavier than the 115, is it correct to assume that would necessitate an 18% increase in bullet length? If so, then that would give an OAL of 1.424. Given the generous case capacity of the 25-06, why could this not be done? I understand that mv may suffer with the same powder because a bullet that long may restrict powder volume to an extent. If that were the case, could a lesser charge of faster burning powder be employed to offset the loss of capacity due to the longer bullet?

I only ask because I see 6.5mm bullets in the 140gr range with bc's in the upper 0.5xx range. I would like to see bc's like that for my 25-06 but can't find many above what I already have. If my thinking is erroneous please forgive me. I've been stuck in the house with strep throat & a nasty fever for three days. Fevers always scramble my egg pretty good.
 
Almost 40 views and no opinions? Come on guys. You won't get my strep from talking to me over a forum.
 
I like the 25-06 as a caliber a lot. My Step Father had a Remington 700 ADL he bought new around 1970 and it was his main rifle until he died a couple of years ago. This rifle actually took more game than any other rifle I know of by a lot.

As to why there isn't a heavier bullet available for it I don't know except to think bullet manufacturers do not think the market can support it. Also, maybe rifles were not designed for it, longer bullets need faster twist barrels. Probably a hundred other reasons.

Additional bullet weight would be at the base of the bullet so it would not grow in length at a percentage of the lesser weight bullet.

James
 
I suspect that the biggest reason is the twist rate of typical production barrels.

Heavy bullets necessitate slower powders for maximum performance. The large cases capacity of the 25-06 also necessitates slower powders, IIRC from my QuickLoad experiments. The combination of the two may require unrealistic barrel length to achieve best performance.

It seems to me, from looking at QuickLoad, that the 25-06 really requires a long barrel for best use, due to relatively large case capacity vs bore size.

It's been a while since I looked though, so I might be blowing smoke on this one. ;)

I like the 25-06, it would be my second choice overall, to the 7mm-08. The -08 just has more of what I want with only a minimal, and very tolerable, recoil increase.
 
I like it a lot. It was probably the first wildcat based on the .30-06 case, from all accounts, no less than AO Neidner looked at a .30-06 case before 1920 and wondered "what if"? Remington standardized it in 1969,after it had been a wildcat for over 50 years.

My early Ruger 77 turns in 0.80 groups with the 120 Sierra Gameking and Reloder 22 powder. That rifle wears a fixed 6X scope and it might do better with a better load or glass, but I haven't done any further load development because that suits me just fine.

I consider the .25-06 one of the very best cartridges for beanfield work, although I haven't shot anything with it past 100 yards.

It's a favorite of Dave Petzal, too.

Almost 40 views and no opinions? Come on guys. You won't get my strep from talking to me over a forum.
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I just got in from work. And I need to put on a pot of rice for supper. It might be a couple of hours before I look at this forum again, but the .25-06 is a very fine cartridge for North American game.
 
I have yet to find my 25-06 deficient for anything I hunt. It seems extremely well suited to the wide open & often windy kansas plains. Like anybody with too much time on their hands and stuck in the house, I began wondering why a heavier bullet wasn't available. Maybe it's simply because heavier bullets would defeat the purpose of the .25-06 which seems to be that of a relatively fast & flat round? For anything heavier, I could always grab the .270 parked next to it or the 7mm mag parked next to that. I don't need a heavier bullet....was just thinking in terms of increasing the bc of it.
 
I believe you nailed it. With bullets heavier than 120 grains the 25-06 has lost its advantage. Its just another medium velocity round based on the 30-06case.
The Nosler 115 BT and Sierra 117 Game King are my go to bullets. Its a great cartridge for where and how I hunt here in S.C. Flat shooting and hard hitting without punishing recoil.
 
Great question Mdd I have wondered the same at times as I have owned at least one some times two since 1972. I have shoot every thing from elk to gophers with the 25 and have never had any thing get away. I always take two rifles on hunting trips and one is always a 25-06. This year I am working on a 7MM-08 in a model 7 Rem. for a little rifle its really a shooter so far I am very impressed.
 
OK, here is my opinion.
The 25-06 is a pointless round to have. It never needed inventing. The only value is to the manufacturers of the rifles and ammo to sell as the next great thing.
You can go down a step to the .243 that will do everything the 25-06 will do or go up to a real rifle, the 30-06 that will do everything the 25 will do and much-much more.
 
Tell that to the guy who killed groundhogs with his 25-06 past 1000 yards.

The 25-06 is an awesome cartridge. I have used a load of 120 grain sierra gameking traveling at 3200 fps for years. I even killed a crow at slightly over 300 yards with the load.

You can go to the other end and push an 85 grain bullet at 22-250 velocities for a 55 grain bullet. It seems I have read about a 75 grain bullet at even higher velocities.

Useless? nope!

If I had to grab one of my guns for overall long range varmint hunting, Elk killing, even as a sniping rifle that can outrange a 308, it would be my 25-06 mark II target.
 
GOOD question, Old saying it is what it is I like the 25-06 just like it is myself I would'nt change it for a heavy load the 117gr.gives me the thump I'M looking for.We all can't be in love with the 243 or the 30-06 .The .25 need love too.:D
 
The big .25 magnum is one of my favorites, as well. If you've loaded many 120 gr. loads, then you will notice that it takes a considerable amount of bullet seated in the neck to facilitate feeding in the magazine, not to mention battering up the tips under recoil. Can you imagine trying to handle a bullet .100" longer?:confused: I'd guess we'd be lucky to get 2800 fps out of it--what a shame that would be.:o Then there's the matter of sectional density versus bullet length and its terminal ballistic effect. At most moderate velocities, it would be a gut-poker at best. Accurate enough for target shooting, but simply punching a small hole through soft tissues without opening up. You just can't beat either the Hornady 117 gr. or the 100 gr. Partition in my opinion. Like John Wootters wrote in the Nosler Number Three, you can simply change only the bullet component of your favorite 100 gr. load from Ballistic Tip to Partition and have devastating effects on varmints and bigger game. That's hard to beat at over 3300 fps.:D

-7-
 
My go to rifle for deer or antelope is my .257 AI.I used to load it to 3150 with a 115 gr bullet,I backed off some years ago to 3050 fps.This is from a 22 in Douglas fwt bbl,22 in.
Its close enough to a 25-06 to join in.My twist is 1 in 10.
It has already been mentioned,standard twist is what you are up against.There is no reason why an 8 or 9 in twist could not be offered,and if the barrels were out there,the bullet companies could make the bullets to match the twists.
What we are up against :The .25 calibers are a niche market.Nothing wrong with them,but they have not sold as much as some others.
If David Tubbs decided to go 25 cal and gunrags built up some 25 cal long range cartridge shooting 25 cal bullets,or if NATO went with a 25 cal round...maybe we would get what you want.Actually,think about it,with the exception of 6mm,the long bullet,tight twist calibers have been military rounds
5.56,6.5,7mm,7.62.
It might be the military has a different job to do than the hunter,so hunting rounds,till now,have focused on light bullets at high velocity for flat trajectory at reasonable hunting ranges.The .270 falls into the same situation.
For myself,I limit my range hunting live targets that will suffer if I screw up.
That excellent 115 Nosler Ballistic tip does all I need it to do at any range I would shoot at an antelope.I have shot a lot of them.
I also know a little breeze I don;t notice will drift them quite a bit past 400,and I don't shoot that far any more.It had to do with a clean kill neck shot where I was holding center chest.wake-up call.
Berger makes a pointy high BC 115 gr that will give you a little more BC.I have not used them yet.
The easiest way to have a high BC 25-06 is rebarrel to 6.5 -06.Not ready for a barrel?Shoot another 1000 rds or so.
And have fun.
 
The 25-06 is a pointless round to have. It never needed inventing. The only value is to the manufacturers of the rifles and ammo to sell as the next great thing.
You can go down a step to the .243 that will do everything the 25-06 will do or go up to a real rifle, the 30-06 that will do everything the 25 will do and much-much more.
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The problem with this way of thinking is that you could make the same arguement against every cartridge out there.

For the purpose of debate though, the 25-06 shoots flatter at normal distances than the 30-06 and does it with less recoil while still offering plenty of power to take deer sized game at distances farther than most people can make a reliably accurate shot. It also offers more power than the 243 does. Anything a 243 will do, a 25-06 will do better.
 
Besides, if we only had a handful of calibers, life would be less interesting, we would have fewer excuses to buy a new rifle, and we would have less to argue about. :D
 
If say a 140 gr bullet is 18% heavier than the 115, is it correct to assume that would necessitate an 18% increase in bullet length? If so, then that would give an OAL of 1.424. Given the generous case capacity of the 25-06, why could this not be done? I understand that mv may suffer with the same powder because a bullet that long may restrict powder volume to an extent. If that were the case, could a lesser charge of faster burning powder be employed to offset the loss of capacity due to the longer bullet?
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There's a couple of limiting factors to bullet length besides case capacity. The twist may not stablilize a longer bullet. The bearing surface may be too long. 120 seems to be the max for a 25 caliber spitzer.
 
Well, guys, in my old age I have become very very fond of the quarter bores.
I now own five of them:

Ruger .250 Savage (I bought it for my grandson, as his first centerfire rifle.)
Ruger No. 1-A, .257 Roberts
Ruger Ultra-Lite, .257 Roberts
Ruger No. 1-A, .25-06
Ruger M77, .25-06

IMHO, .25-06 is find cartridge for most game in the lower 48.
I'm driving 85 gr NBTs 3500+fps and getting .5” groups @ 100 yards.
I'm getting with 100 gr NBTs, 3300 fps, and 100 gr NPs, 3250 fps, and getting .6” groups @ 100 yards.
I'm getting with 120 gr NPs, 3100+ fps, and getting .7” groups @ 100 yards.

These loads aren't max loads. So, I know I could drive these bullets faster if I wanted to, but with these kind of groups, I don't see the need.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
The 25-06 is a pointless round to have. It never needed inventing. The only value is to the manufacturers of the rifles and ammo to sell as the next great thing.
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This one has only been around for ninety (90) years, I doubt anyone is going to tout is as "the next great thing". It'll do what a .243 does and it'll do 90% of what a .30-06 does.

I like my .243, but I see the downside of that caliber. I consider it marginal for deer after having some rather interesting bullet failures. Sure, the .243 will do the job, but for most medium game a quarter-bore will do it better.

If you buy into the hype of the next great thing, then you're helping the manufacturers sell new firearms. That's why they're in business. And, once in a while, they come up with an idea that has merit. Let the market sort it out.
 
I like the .243 but I will take a .25-06 over the .243 every day. The .25-06 is simply more versatile and still mild on the shoulder.
 
I really liked the 25 until I started comparing it to the 6.5. Exactly why I own a 6.5-06 and two 260s. My 6.5 replaces a 25-06 and a 270. The 260 replaces the 243 and all the short, standard 25s.
 
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