Let Them Have It
- Thread starter roy reali
- Start date
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Quoted byWuchak:
I won't disagree with your statement. However, as soooo many people are quick to pipe up about the items the Bush Administration and Congress has done wrong, they have also responsible for issues that have helped.
1. Congress nor the Adm reinstated the Clinton AWB. Whatever Bush claimed to say he'd sign to resinstate I don't care. People think he's a blatant liar. So, what is it? Is he? Or do you believe him? What makes you believe he would directly take your 2A rights back down to this level when he has left well enough alone for the most part on this issue. Like it or not, it's a FACT that the AWB rode off into the sunset and the Republican controlled Congress did NOTHING to trip up the horse...
2. Congress nor the Adm stuck their noses into the states allowing CCW. Before Bush, there were few and far between states that were shall issue. Now, there are about 40+. For all that are quick to point out the federal govt. should butt out of our rights sure don't say much on the forums here about this very important issue.
Do I think he was necessarily a gun friendly President? Not really. Am I happy where our state of 2A rights are now? Absolutely not. But, I will begrudgingly take a Congress that does a mediocre job at very best to restore our rights than a Congress that's hell bent on stripping them.
Call it 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't necessarily see it this way.
Quoted by JWT:
I agree. I think we need to start fresh from scratch in both the Legislative and Executive branch. There are VERY few politicians that deserve to represent us that have a seat in the WH....
I won't disagree with your statement. However, as soooo many people are quick to pipe up about the items the Bush Administration and Congress has done wrong, they have also responsible for issues that have helped.
1. Congress nor the Adm reinstated the Clinton AWB. Whatever Bush claimed to say he'd sign to resinstate I don't care. People think he's a blatant liar. So, what is it? Is he? Or do you believe him? What makes you believe he would directly take your 2A rights back down to this level when he has left well enough alone for the most part on this issue. Like it or not, it's a FACT that the AWB rode off into the sunset and the Republican controlled Congress did NOTHING to trip up the horse...
2. Congress nor the Adm stuck their noses into the states allowing CCW. Before Bush, there were few and far between states that were shall issue. Now, there are about 40+. For all that are quick to point out the federal govt. should butt out of our rights sure don't say much on the forums here about this very important issue.
Do I think he was necessarily a gun friendly President? Not really. Am I happy where our state of 2A rights are now? Absolutely not. But, I will begrudgingly take a Congress that does a mediocre job at very best to restore our rights than a Congress that's hell bent on stripping them.
Call it 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I don't necessarily see it this way.
Quoted by JWT:
I agree. I think we need to start fresh from scratch in both the Legislative and Executive branch. There are VERY few politicians that deserve to represent us that have a seat in the WH....
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Blame?
Yes, for six years the GOP did a lousy job. But the democrats have had control of congress for the last two years. I believe most of our economic woes have accelerated since then. Bush is who they are blaming. Who has the power to pass laws or change taxes? Heck, the democrats are bickering amongst themselves.
Now imagine if the chief executive was one of them. If the economic crisis continues to worsen, who will catch the heat? It would be almost amusing to see how they will start throwing each other under the bus.
I really think that no good could come to the GOP with a McCain victory. I really think he can set the republican party back fifthy years. If electing a democrat fixes and revitalizes the republicans then I think the sacrafice would be worth it. Think back to the late 70's.
Yes, for six years the GOP did a lousy job. But the democrats have had control of congress for the last two years. I believe most of our economic woes have accelerated since then. Bush is who they are blaming. Who has the power to pass laws or change taxes? Heck, the democrats are bickering amongst themselves.
Now imagine if the chief executive was one of them. If the economic crisis continues to worsen, who will catch the heat? It would be almost amusing to see how they will start throwing each other under the bus.
I really think that no good could come to the GOP with a McCain victory. I really think he can set the republican party back fifthy years. If electing a democrat fixes and revitalizes the republicans then I think the sacrafice would be worth it. Think back to the late 70's.
Forwardassist
New member
Too late Bush II already set the party back decades.
Well that theory only holds water if Obama turns out to be a lousy president. for all we know he might turn out to be a great president in the eyes of the nation. Of course people on this board would never agree but then we are in the minority.
Re:forwardassist
If Obama turns out to be a great president and turns the economy around I'll be the first to congratulate him. If I end up with more jingle in my pockets I could care less what party our leaders belong to. Many here express concern about the 2nd amendment. I am worried about that too. But if we all end up broke and unemployed, what good are gun rights if we can't afford the guns or the ammo?
Carter was pretty much a disaster. But it got us Reagan, a fair trade off in my book. If Obama leads to another Reagan-type president then I am willing to chance it.
If Obama turns out to be a great president and turns the economy around I'll be the first to congratulate him. If I end up with more jingle in my pockets I could care less what party our leaders belong to. Many here express concern about the 2nd amendment. I am worried about that too. But if we all end up broke and unemployed, what good are gun rights if we can't afford the guns or the ammo?
Carter was pretty much a disaster. But it got us Reagan, a fair trade off in my book. If Obama leads to another Reagan-type president then I am willing to chance it.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
I don't think the majority of Americans will end up so broke they can't afford a gun of some kind to protect them and ammo to load.
I'll take my chances of being broke and unemployed to having my rights stripped altogether to protect my life and loved one.
My question to you is what good is a better economy if you're not on this earth to enjoy life due to a thug taking it from you?
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Last I checked gas prices, housing market, weakening dollar, copper and lead prices....
In my lifetime? Never. I haven't had anything better than I do now.
I see your point Tuttle8. I'm not sure I can give them credit for inaction though.
When people truly believe in something they fight to protect it. In this case the Republicans didn't do anything to help protect or strengthen 2nd Amendment rights. They just didn't act to further infringe on them. In my book that's not the same thing.
I think of it like this. Imagine someone is getting beat by a mob in the street as you walk by. The leader of the mob says to you ,"We promise we'll stop beating him in five minutes." You reply, "OK" and sit down and wait for the beating to end. In five minutes they stop the beating and move on but the person is now lying there wounded and you just continue to sit and watch and do nothing. Do you deserve credit for helping?
This administration has shown a much more sinister face than others in regards to their respect for basic human dignity and humane treatment of individuals. They have done everything they can to increase the power of the President to detain, torture, and spy without any oversight. I don't think the Republicans want to take the guns away a little at time. I think they'd rather set the stage to come get them all at once by order of the President under Marshall Law. I've seen a side of the Republican machine that I find terrifying.
When people truly believe in something they fight to protect it. In this case the Republicans didn't do anything to help protect or strengthen 2nd Amendment rights. They just didn't act to further infringe on them. In my book that's not the same thing.
I think of it like this. Imagine someone is getting beat by a mob in the street as you walk by. The leader of the mob says to you ,"We promise we'll stop beating him in five minutes." You reply, "OK" and sit down and wait for the beating to end. In five minutes they stop the beating and move on but the person is now lying there wounded and you just continue to sit and watch and do nothing. Do you deserve credit for helping?
This administration has shown a much more sinister face than others in regards to their respect for basic human dignity and humane treatment of individuals. They have done everything they can to increase the power of the President to detain, torture, and spy without any oversight. I don't think the Republicans want to take the guns away a little at time. I think they'd rather set the stage to come get them all at once by order of the President under Marshall Law. I've seen a side of the Republican machine that I find terrifying.
You should recheck the charts and determine if you REALLY think that they are the result of democratic controlled congress or what the real cause is.
I think you are seeing what you are wanting to see without taking the facts (and timing of the price of these things going up) into account.
Articles of The Constitution
Some folks here are blaming the president for all our woes. Can someone please point out the section under Article II of the Constitution that gives the Commander-In-Chief all these powers. Congress even has the power to end war. All this blaming of the president for everything is wrong. There are things that Bush should be castgated for, but most of the blame rests on the legislative branch.
Wouldn't it be nice for all this hate and blame to be heaped on a democrat for a change?
Some folks here are blaming the president for all our woes. Can someone please point out the section under Article II of the Constitution that gives the Commander-In-Chief all these powers. Congress even has the power to end war. All this blaming of the president for everything is wrong. There are things that Bush should be castgated for, but most of the blame rests on the legislative branch.
Wouldn't it be nice for all this hate and blame to be heaped on a democrat for a change?
hell of an idea.
Voting for the Republicans now gives them zero incentive to change.
Voting for the Democrats (assuming that they indeed do a worse job of governing the nation than the Republicans have) will give the Republican party much more reason to before the 2012 elections.
Voting for the Republicans now gives them zero incentive to change.
Voting for the Democrats (assuming that they indeed do a worse job of governing the nation than the Republicans have) will give the Republican party much more reason to before the 2012 elections.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Quoted by SecDef:
Facts? Who set up NAFTA? Here's a hint: It WASN'T the current Administration...
Who controls the current trade tariffs on key countries that are fighting for resources?
The housing market is our own fault directly with some blame going to banks that give $500,000 homes to people with a $23,000 income...
So, what facts and charts do you have? When the Republicans controlled the house, gas was roughly at $1.75 give or take. When has gas accelerated to these prices today abnormally? My guess was.....about 2 years ago....hmmmmm.
Not one peep about how Bush was handed a slowing economy when he first entered the Presidency. He was blamed for it from the get go and it hasn't stopped since. I'm not saying he's right on issues. What I'm saying is that people are so quick to point the finger at him when there are PLENTY of people that are more DIRECTLY respsonsible for issues going downhill in recent years. So, tit for tat. The dems run have run congress for ALMOST TWO YEARS. That's plenty of time to get the ball rolling to "save" the good 'old USA. If this country was ruled under a true dictatorship and all decisions are made by him and no way to boot him off the throne I would understand the finger pointing. But, contrary to popular opinion, the fact is that this is a republic.
So, as you assume that I was wanting to see without taking "facts" into account, you assumed wrong. Tell me where before this post that I said it was all the Dems and not the Reps fault that the situation we are in today. The republican controlled congress was a short lived 6 years. How about the 40 plus years of when the democrats ruled the roost in the last 50? (Numbers are ballparked)
I merely answered you questions as directly as I could. I haven't had it any better in my life as now. I could say before prices of most of items we consume would be better yet....and that was a couple of years ago. But, with the continued lower overall taxes (hmmm....who's responsible for that?) I bring home a bigger paycheck. In the '90's when most everybody else claimed to be rolling in the dough, my situation wasn't as kind.
Quoted byWuchak:
I don't give them much credit, per se. Believe me, it burns my butt to see that they were wimps in correcting our rights. All I'm saying is that the dems in general are very willing to be active in stripping our 2A rights. One of the saving graces, IMO, was ironically some pro gun democrats were elected to office in the last major election. I think the anti gunners were actually smart enough to lay low until the next congressional election cycle to pursue gun control. They may have the majority now, but it's only by a slim margin.
To respond to your statement might cause a thread drift. The best thing for me to say is I'm an admitted former Patriot Act supporter and leave it at that.
Again, to keep from drifting, I disagree with the Marshal law issue. Seriously all due respect, but I think this is a bit far fetched to see this actually happening. I don't think you're an idiot for thinking this. I just don't see it coming to this anytime soon...
Quoted by roy reali:
Actually, I just want the blame to be placed on everybody that's involved no matter the party affiliation...
Once again, I think you're placing your priorities way out of order. I'm thinking you may believe the gov't controls the economy.
I don't need to afford to go to IDPA matches every week or buy 1000's of rounds of ammo in order to protect myself or my loved one....
Quoted by Danzig
Here's an even better idea than voting Dem to wake up Reps....vote Independent....are you listening to me, Sarah Palin?
Facts? Who set up NAFTA? Here's a hint: It WASN'T the current Administration...
Who controls the current trade tariffs on key countries that are fighting for resources?
The housing market is our own fault directly with some blame going to banks that give $500,000 homes to people with a $23,000 income...
So, what facts and charts do you have? When the Republicans controlled the house, gas was roughly at $1.75 give or take. When has gas accelerated to these prices today abnormally? My guess was.....about 2 years ago....hmmmmm.
Not one peep about how Bush was handed a slowing economy when he first entered the Presidency. He was blamed for it from the get go and it hasn't stopped since. I'm not saying he's right on issues. What I'm saying is that people are so quick to point the finger at him when there are PLENTY of people that are more DIRECTLY respsonsible for issues going downhill in recent years. So, tit for tat. The dems run have run congress for ALMOST TWO YEARS. That's plenty of time to get the ball rolling to "save" the good 'old USA. If this country was ruled under a true dictatorship and all decisions are made by him and no way to boot him off the throne I would understand the finger pointing. But, contrary to popular opinion, the fact is that this is a republic.
So, as you assume that I was wanting to see without taking "facts" into account, you assumed wrong. Tell me where before this post that I said it was all the Dems and not the Reps fault that the situation we are in today. The republican controlled congress was a short lived 6 years. How about the 40 plus years of when the democrats ruled the roost in the last 50? (Numbers are ballparked)
I merely answered you questions as directly as I could. I haven't had it any better in my life as now. I could say before prices of most of items we consume would be better yet....and that was a couple of years ago. But, with the continued lower overall taxes (hmmm....who's responsible for that?) I bring home a bigger paycheck. In the '90's when most everybody else claimed to be rolling in the dough, my situation wasn't as kind.
Quoted byWuchak:
I don't give them much credit, per se. Believe me, it burns my butt to see that they were wimps in correcting our rights. All I'm saying is that the dems in general are very willing to be active in stripping our 2A rights. One of the saving graces, IMO, was ironically some pro gun democrats were elected to office in the last major election. I think the anti gunners were actually smart enough to lay low until the next congressional election cycle to pursue gun control. They may have the majority now, but it's only by a slim margin.
To respond to your statement might cause a thread drift. The best thing for me to say is I'm an admitted former Patriot Act supporter and leave it at that.
Again, to keep from drifting, I disagree with the Marshal law issue. Seriously all due respect, but I think this is a bit far fetched to see this actually happening. I don't think you're an idiot for thinking this. I just don't see it coming to this anytime soon...
Quoted by roy reali:
Actually, I just want the blame to be placed on everybody that's involved no matter the party affiliation...
Once again, I think you're placing your priorities way out of order. I'm thinking you may believe the gov't controls the economy.
I don't need to afford to go to IDPA matches every week or buy 1000's of rounds of ammo in order to protect myself or my loved one....
Quoted by Danzig
Here's an even better idea than voting Dem to wake up Reps....vote Independent....are you listening to me, Sarah Palin?
Re:tuttle8
You made some valid and intelligent points. I agree with you, the blame for our economic problems should be aimed at those that are truly responsible. I am also aware that the President's powers are limited. Be that as it may, the person residing in the White House takes credit for a good economy and takes heat for a bad one.
Fair or not, that is the way its always been and the way it will always be.
I am happy you are doing well. To be honest, I am not doing too bad. But to be honest, I am not very optimistic about the near future. Every new prediction I hear about the time for the housing recovery is later then the previous one. Energy prices are soaring. Even with the new push for domestic drilling I don't expect any American oil to be flowing next week or even next year. Inflation seems to be heading towards double digit and unemployment isn't too far behind.
I am afraid the no matter who takes the White House they will catch a lot of heat. The republicans have already been hammered and one could say rightfully so. But one more disaster for the party might cause harm that will be near impossible to recover from.
I really hope I am wrong about all this.
You made some valid and intelligent points. I agree with you, the blame for our economic problems should be aimed at those that are truly responsible. I am also aware that the President's powers are limited. Be that as it may, the person residing in the White House takes credit for a good economy and takes heat for a bad one.
Fair or not, that is the way its always been and the way it will always be.
I am happy you are doing well. To be honest, I am not doing too bad. But to be honest, I am not very optimistic about the near future. Every new prediction I hear about the time for the housing recovery is later then the previous one. Energy prices are soaring. Even with the new push for domestic drilling I don't expect any American oil to be flowing next week or even next year. Inflation seems to be heading towards double digit and unemployment isn't too far behind.
I am afraid the no matter who takes the White House they will catch a lot of heat. The republicans have already been hammered and one could say rightfully so. But one more disaster for the party might cause harm that will be near impossible to recover from.
I really hope I am wrong about all this.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
"I would take Bush over Obama any day."
Wow, I thought we got past this the same year that more than half the people polled in the US indicated they believe in evolution.
I am guessing the GOP is done. The question is, has so much damage been done in the last twenty years of both parties not being able to control the pork that we can not recover?
Libertarian/Constitution Party is the only hope this country has for staying on top at the standard of living most are used to. Of course I have lived overseas and think we could afford to spread the wealth a little. Of course the Libertarian Party is a little bigger than the Constitution I believe. These parties need to change their focus from national politics to local. Get a few Mayors and state senators elected to prove the system does not preclude a third party, then hit the presidential race.
Wow, I thought we got past this the same year that more than half the people polled in the US indicated they believe in evolution.
I am guessing the GOP is done. The question is, has so much damage been done in the last twenty years of both parties not being able to control the pork that we can not recover?
Libertarian/Constitution Party is the only hope this country has for staying on top at the standard of living most are used to. Of course I have lived overseas and think we could afford to spread the wealth a little. Of course the Libertarian Party is a little bigger than the Constitution I believe. These parties need to change their focus from national politics to local. Get a few Mayors and state senators elected to prove the system does not preclude a third party, then hit the presidential race.
Hmm, let's see. ahh, yes, the FACTS are that it was signed by George H.W. Bush and pushed through congress by Bill Clinton who didn't change a word. Now shoot, I just can't remember which party George H.W. Bush was affiliated with...
And yet you absolutely ignored the previous 4 years. Unfortunately for you, there is a fairly smooth curve. Since you want to see a chart, HERE you go. Notice the inflection point in 2006. It goes the opposite direction you seem to desire.
Gas has risen immensely since 1999. Not really so much before that.
Your "when the republicans controlled the house" line is amusing. Look at 2000-2006 and tell me that the republicans saved the day (for gas prices) with a straight face.
Wait, your argument is that the 6 years of republican in charge of presidency and congress was simply due to being handed a slowing economy, but then say that 2 years is PLENTY of time for the dems?
Yes, they should have ended the stupid war and impeached like they were voted in to do, but really, doesn't your statement come off at least a little bit biased? Not only has the budgets gone way into deficit spending, but the entire war in Iraq is off budget. You going to skewer the dems for this but reward the republicans for leading the way?
You also say DIRECTLY responsible (your capitalization) but don't say what those direct actions were. You mean that they haven't been caving in to the white house at every turn!?!?
I appreciate your candor. If you really wanted lower overall taxes, you would consider a candidate that would lower taxes in your tax rate.* I'm gonna assume from your story that you aren't taking in over 250k/yr in regular income
*just ribbing you... I was just recernty looking at Obama vs McCain proposed tax charts.