LEO Training, Good Enough?

Do LEO's have the proper training to handle a shootout when it happens?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 34.7%

  • No

    Votes: 32 65.3%
  • Total voters
    49
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Spy, I don't really see that video falling into the category of a shoot out, but I guess it shows the hit/miss situation well. It made me ask more questions about this particular officers training. I realize he came very close to being shot, so he was probably scared, but why back strait up from the window? All he did was give the suspect time to line up a shot, had he stepped to his right and drew his weapon, the suspect couldn't have gotten a shot off in his direction, and he would have been in a much better position to return fire. Do they not train LEO's to take immediate cover in a situation like this? Then of course he tries to shoot the suspect as he's speeding away, I understand that, but why not shoot for the tires? 2 or 3 well placed rounds would have blown both rear tires and then they could have chased him down, he very well could have gotten away in this situation. So did lack of discipline play a part in this scenario? The LEO just got shot at, he's rightfully teed off, but is emptying a mag at a fleeing car the best thing to do? I don't think so, I think if this LEO had better training (physical and mental) he might have made some better decisions.
 
There were alot of shootings in the urban NE large city that had 60-70 shots fired at a suspect, but only hitting them 3-4 times. What percentage is that?

It all comes back to how you are trained. Massive amount of lead heading down range with a couple of holes on the target. And that's without stress or adrenaline running!:rolleyes:
 
Just wondering, how many people here spend time working on the very basics of shooting to the point that it is not fun anymore to build the muscle memory of proper shooting skills? There are a few guys in my department that can drive nails during a standard qual, but as soon as they are out of that comfort zone they struggle to keep it on the paper.
 
Moose, once again I guess I'm lucky:) I drive out to our Strausburg property every few days, and every time I do I put atleast 20 rounds down range. We have a problem with rabbits and mice in the barn, and because of them we have rattlers, so every time I go out I get to shoot at a moving bunny rabbit from 20ft away. Somtimes it takes a few shots to get him but never more than 6. I'll agree with the post that say even a few rounds down range often is better than allot more rounds once or twice a year.
 
Do we get enough training? Nope, not in anything, whether it's firearms, defensive tactics, pursuit/high speed driving, legal decision updates, patrol level crime scene processing, dealing with the mentally unstable and on and on.

Being firearms enthusiast, we tend to solely focus on marksmanship and that cops should all be expert shooters. The car enthusiasts tend to think our cars should all have high performance and that we have driving skills comparable to race car driver. The martial artists believe LEO should be a black belt in their dicipline. The truth is that in each of these areas law enforcement is far better than an average citizen but not on par with a specialist is those areas.

The why is simple, the citizens, through their elected representatives (city council members and mayors mostly) aren't willing to pay for all the training we should have and need. It's not just the direct cost of training (ammo, cars). It's also the extra staffing levels needed to provide service while some portion of the force is training.

Despite this, law enforcement officers are effectively dealing with lethal force encounters and prevail far more than we lose. This is despite the fact that in most instances the offender initiates the action and the officer reacts to it. It's not about marksmanship, it's about being aware, keeping your head, being decisive, and determined when someone suddenly pulls a gun on you at close range.
 
I would, as a tax payer, rather have my tax dollars go to training the LEO's in my area, or on a federal level, go to training nation wide. Rather than have it go to completely unnecessary programs like planned parenthood,let me be clear, I am NOT trying to start a political debate over worthless government funded programs, I'm simply saying our taxes could be paying for better training for the LEO's that are risking their lives everyday, not paying for free condoms so tommy and jenny can skip school.
 
The LEO just got shot at, he's rightfully teed off, but is emptying a mag at a fleeing car the best thing to do? I don't think so, I think if this LEO had better training (physical and mental) he might have made some better decisions.
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In very few situations do the good guys make decisions in high stress incidents that are the best thing they can do. Yes, everyone could make better decisions with better training and more better training.

As for not being a shootout, shots were exchanged, it was a shootout.

Maybe you are lucky. Based on the vids I have seen of most the US military soldiers in combat, they make all sorts of mistakes on a regular basis. They are doing the best that they can, but apparently suffer from insufficiencies that undoubtedly are based in their training or lack thereof. They are woefully unprepared compared to what you refer to as having had "the time to train the way our combat troops do." I have yet to meet a single soldier who has told me that the training s/he received was fully sufficient such they the soldier was properly trained and had the mental mindset and skill set to respond correctly to their first several combat events and many never get properly up to speed.

Where many seem to really get up to speed is with experience of combat, but some manage to survive without ever getting up to speed (See "On Killing" by Grossman).
 
See this is what I was afraid of, I'm thinking there won't be one LEO out there who says they get enough training.
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Let me put your mind at ease in the case of the Mississippi Highway Patrol. 22 weeks of sequestered, paramilitary training. Punishing exercises, thousands of rounds fired, unforgiving academics, and an absolute intolerance for failure. Marines that wind up at the academy in Pearl, MS jokingly call it "Paris Island without the sand flies." Even training typically found exclusively in SWAT is the norm.

You can rest assured that Mississippians have complete confidence in the State Troopers. As a matter of fact, I've heard Pearl graduates ridiculed for being "those cops that think they're on SWAT." I can't say the same for other academies, like MPD Academy or Moorehead. The Memphis Academy trains so many officers from area departments that you kind of expect training to get rushed. It's not an ideal situation. And Moorehead has more emphasis on case law than tactics and is only 11 weeks, I think. So it just depends on the department really.
 
Some very good points..

LEO officers are expected to do so much with VERY little training. I am a cop of 10 years and a trainer. Shooting is a very small part of it. No one has the time/budget/resources to spend hours on the range becoming marksmen. If you want that, you do it on your own time. I would say 99.5% of cops in my department don't touch firearms outside of work.
Cops (not counting SWAT) are SOL if coming up against a determined individual with better training and weapons. Too much police training in the past has focused on 'ambush' scenarios that cause cops to roll their eyes and look at the clock to see how much longer they need to endure this nonsense. :(
Keep the fundamentals simple and practice often.
 
So how can some, like the Mississippi State Patrol, get such phenomenal training, and others fall, way, way behind? I wonder what kind of budget Mississippi throws to the State Troopers? Here in Northglenn, CO, we have no budget, Denver is worse. And it shows in the caliber of LEO's that we see here. I know allot of you are saying that money can't fix it, but it certainly couldn't hurt either.
 
You're assuming they all fall behind. I attended KCPD's in 1981 and it was fully as intense as the MI outfit described above. In those days, if the 'washout rate' was below a certain percent, they figured the training wasn't tough enough.

IIRC, we started with 26 and finished with 12 or 13.
 
Tim makes some fine points, but I do have a question about MHP - how much sustainment training do they get? Is that on a par with what they get at the Academy?

For example, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center has great ranges and instructors. But after you leave, you may end up at the local sand pit, with a guy who is the firearms officer because he is not very good at anything, so they dump all the lesser jobs (car fleet manager, classified files clerk, etc.) on him or her.
 
I'm not assuming anything, I'm just noticing a trend. Some officers are saying their departments training is top notch, others are saying it sucks. I'm wondering why that would be. It seems to me that all departments would strive to be the best. Without being a LEO myself I can only speculate that it has allot to do with the caliber of leadership(or lack thereof), the attitude of the individual officer, and the amount of funding the department has. If any one of those is not on track, I would think the whole department suffers. Thats why my Platoon Sergeant quickly got rid of any soldier that didn't want to be there. If I were a cop, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near an fellow officer that didn't have the drive to be the best. And if I were the brass, I sure as heck wouldn't tolerate any officer in my department with a "I have a badge, thats good enough" attitude. I met two Lakewood, CO Officers today at a Veterans job fair, and after talking to them for a while about a job opportunity, I brought up this discussion. They told me pretty much the same thing most of the TFL members have posted. They had to buy their own weapons, pay for their own training, and 80% of the department didn't even want to be there. I don't know about most people, but those 80% aren't the kind of LEO's I wan't "protecting and serving" anything.
 
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Training is regular and rigorous with MHP. Most officers will go on eventually to one of the special agencies (SWAT, A-Team, SOG, beaurea of investigations, etc.) an will receive more training there. It is a big, if not the biggest, focus. It isn't always about money. Sometimes it's about priorities or political support. Gov. Barbour is very supportive of the HP, and the HP chooses to emphasize training over material things like newer cars. The fleet is not shabby, mind you. It's pristine. But officers are pounded with the promise that heads will roll if they abuse the equipment and don't make it last. They want the money for training, training, and more training. The best man is preferable to the best office, car, or computer.
 
The guys who want to get extra training thru schools, classes or lots of practice off duty are only a small percentage of the officers I know. Most only shoot during yearly qualifications, at fixed paper targets, at the same distances in the same stance year after year. The also shoot in the same cadence each time, with ample time limits to adhere to.

Now, for the officers who join a SWAT or CERT team, the training is pretty intensive & goes into a lot more detail. We've had classes & joint training with military units, other police departments & in addition to lots & lots of shooting, you get more realistic scenarios such as in shoot houses or FATS training. We've had week long 40 hour courses that used simunitions along with our tactical gear. Different scenarios are run constantly thru the whole week. Flash-bangs, OC spray, rough handcuffing tecniques, timed mile & a half runs, agility & strength testing, proper weapon maintainance, etc, etc. And the actual tactical instruction is very in depth. There are some very sharp & qualified instructors who have a real passion for teaching the finer points needed to survive armed encounters. The officers who avail themselves to this type training benefit greatly and have a huge advantage over those officers who are content with their once a year qualifications.

One problem that many good officers face is having a Chief who is into what's called "Community Policing" or who is not themself aggressive by nature. Back in the day, our police chief would not allow us to wear black uniforms because he said they "looked too intimidating". I told him that that's a good thing but he said to get out of his office! The best Chief's are the ones who were actually working the streets & progressed upwards, rather then someone who was a professor of criminolgy somewhere and was appointed by politics to the position of "Chief". I had another Chief who was into guns & would approve all kinds of training. Getting extra ammo to practice with was always ok'ed. So a lot of what training the officer gets is dictated by that officer's Chief. The same Chief who wouldn't allow us to wear all black uniforms also put out an order that if there were a school shooting at one of the 4 schools we covered, we were forbidden to enter the school until at least 3 officers arrived. It took a while & a lot of "diplomacy" but we finally convinced him that order needed rescinded.

One more thing I'd like to add here. From what I've seen, the best trained officers who also really enjoy what they're doing don't get rattled like the average officer who shoots once a year & has not had the extra training. All the extra time & effort that's put into aquiring these skills builds a lot of confidence in those who have prepared themselves. They're less likely to panic & make mistakes. The more training the better the chances are of successfully resolving an incident. And the MOST successful way any incident can be resolved is with no deaths. Proper & intensive training will help prevent deaths on both sides of the officers weapon.
 
Apparently, even the LEOs don't think so.

Because all I ever see them doing is handing out speeding tickets on the highway.

This is horse$#!+. Why don't communities just find a better way to
increase their revenues, and set their police to protecting and serving us,
instead of breaking our balls?

There's a few good reasons most people don't like cops.
 
Hmmm, so you don't care if folks kill your family by speeding? Plus, a lot of really bad guys get arrested after a stop for speeding, illegal lane changes, etc. etc. Perhaps you never heard that speed kills?

You do understand that the best way to get out of a speeding ticket is DON'T SPEED?

And revenue is not the issue, public safety is.
 
Roger that Sleuth, Wolf we are not discussing whether or not LEO's handing out speeding tickets is harassing people, A good friend of mine was killed by a speeder/influenced driver. I've had several speeding tickets myself, the State Patrolman who gave me my speeding tickets was doing his job, and maybe if the speeder who killed my friend had his balls busted that day my friend would still be alive. If you want to complain about cops doing their jobs start your own thread.
 
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