LEO and AR 15s

SPEMack618,

Good point. Many folks forget about the older semi-auto rifles that were available to law enforcement years ago, and think its only a recent invention, which its not.
 
Living in the northeast, I am not as familiar with police carrying them. Having spoken to a leo buddy, some do in fact have them. I guess I was behind the times too. :) I think they are more covert about here.

Yes, it does seem like the media is making it look as if this is a new trend. Anyone police department buying them now is likely to be outed in the media.
 
^^^ Yup.

Winchester 1905 was the functional prototype of them all.....

Lever Action '94 in .30-30 was what they carried "in the trunk" here when I was a kid. Local police had one Thompson that sat in the Chiefs safe: He brought it out on the 4th of July and let the local boy scouts shoot it if they wanted to. Must have worked, one of the scouts is now Chief himself and several of the officers were scouts too. Times have changed, but not a lot: Cops still play with guns and occasionally let friends have a go. The last full auto I shot was a H&K MP-5 that lived in the trunk of an FBI agent friend.

Pay for the ammo... shoot at cans.

Some things never change.


Willie


.
 
Yep Willie,

I guess for those who argue the "militarization of the police" they really dont know of what they are speaking of...

Most of the style/types of firearms that have been used by the military have been used by law enforcement as well. Though law enforcement tends to adopt some firearms later then the military, depending on what firearm type we are speaking of.

Want to argue that a shotgun is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a bolt action rifle is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a semi-auto rifle is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a semi-auto pistol is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a double action revolver is for only military? Afterall they used them at various timesin history...

Want to argue that a single action revolver is only for military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue a cap and ball revolver is only for military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue a muzzle loader is only for military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

I struggle to find a firearm type only used for law enforcement that was never adopted officially or unofficially by the military in some way...
 
Back in the early 70's, police departments were a major source of class 3 weapons that are in the NFA registry today. For a while a PD could register a class 3 weapon with the ATF and then later sell or trade it to a class 3 dealer. You would be amazed at the weapons that PDs held. Have seen cases of carbines, heavy machine guns and lots of WWII guns.

Since the PD's didn't have money for new guns, the dealer would offer to trade new guns for the old guns. Have seen a commerical Thompson traded for two NIB Colt m-16s. For a long time Colt would only sell m-16s to a dealer if he had a purchase order or letter from the Chief. Can remember when Rem. 870 with folding stock and extended mag tube was for LE only, too. If the PD did not take all the m-16s ordered, then the dealer could sell the extra ones to the private market with a transfer. Something that I loved was that when the old guns left the PD, all the ammo, parts and accessories went to the dealer. There were a lot of collector items in those shipments. Example: 45 cal shot cart. for TSG, mil. cases of match ammo and all sorts of web gear.

The m-16s were the new toy and everyone wanted to get rid of the old guns. It was when the RIT Team training started that the m-16 then the H & Ks became the guns PDs had to have.

There were many discussions concerning guns that the military used and if Miller would apply. It was thought that if you could produce a photograph of a USGI holding any type of weapon in a war zone, it was legal. Example: tunnel rat in Vietnam holding a cut down shotgun or m-1 carbine. The Seals loved to use captured AK-47s instead of the m-16.

Heard two stories about class 3 weapons in the Atlanta PD armory:

1. They had two heavy barrel M-2 .50 cal machine guns. Never saw them.

2. During the riots of the 60s, in a hurry to issue all the auto weapons they had on hand, they forgot to log the serial numbers and who the guns were given to. Supposedly, some never came back in after the riots were over.
 
I don't see why the police are different from the average joe in a few ways. Of course they have volunteered to uphold the law but, in My reasoning, most times they are responding to an after the fact situation and ALSO responding in force.(lotsa cops,lights and sirens)

Joe average on the otherhand, must deal directly with the situation,whatever that may be.

Understood the police do get into situations where the badguys are still there. So they are authorized superior firepower(and I don't deny that) while the average joe is limited and maybe outnumbered.
 
When you look, the real mission of LE is to verify a violation of law(crime) and gather evidence to find the person or persons that did the crime. Then to arrest the person and let the court system punish if guilty.

To serve and protect is to remove the bad guy based on his past behavior to prevent another future crime. Needing high firepower during the conflict is for protection of the officer. Is not the same true for everyone?

The public does not understand the real mission of governments because of the false belief that they will protect you and me.

Example: The real mission of the fire department is to protect the surrounding properties. Not the building that is on fire. Sometimes extinquishment of the burning building will protect the surrounding properties. Usually the burning building is a loss by the time that the fire department arrives and any effert to save it is a waste of manpower, water and resourses.

Same thing in LE. The crime is done. Figure out who, arrest them and let the court punish. Thus, we are protected from the person doing it to someone else, again.

You must be responsible for the propection for you, your family and your property.
 
You mean the mission of the fire department is not to put out fires? So if my house is on fire, I shouldn't bother to call the fire department?
 
You mean the mission of the fire department is not to put out fires? So if my house is on fire, I shouldn't bother to call the fire department?
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Well, your neighbors would certainly appreciate it if you called, since it's going to make a bigger difference to them than it will to you.

Unless you can notify the fire department *very* early on, the damage to your house is probably going to be about the same either way - it'll either burn to the foundation one way, or it'll be half burnt-out and completely waterlogged the other way.
 
Thank you, Scott for the observation on a fire. A fire department is reactive, so they are already behind when the alarm bells ring. If a building is over 50%involved, then it is more productive to protect the surroundings. You can put out any fire with a coffee cup full of water. Either at the start or the very end.

While in a Rad-f Course in December, I was told that Florida Troopers and some other Florida Officers were going to be issued Army surplus M-16s. Supposeldy, the guns are early and do not have forward assist. One person said that he had aproblem with the guns because one would not fit in his patrol car's trunk. He drives one of the Dodge Chargers.
 
What else is in his trunk? Given an empty or near empty trunk, even the smallest little hybrid would have to have room for an AR.
 
I've only been in a patrol car once, for a courtesy ride after giving a witness statement after a car accident cost me my bus ride to work. And then it was just the front seat. I'm not saying it should be empty, but was legitimately asking how much other junk they carried around with them.. I assume a fairly hefty response kit with first aid, and various other tools, spike strips and what not...
 
Many if not most PDs/SOs have been arming their people w/ ARs or M16s since the North Hollywood Shootout of 1997. The shotguns were sold.
 
You ever see a patrol car's trunk?
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My soon to be Brother-in-Law's patrol car isn't so much a police car as it is a rolling general store.

Mini-14, Mossberg 500, big ole first aid kit, road flares, jack, those little signal triangle things, rain suit, etc. etc.

Our Sheriff's Dept. has carried Mini-14s since the mid-80s. Out here response times are in the 14 to 25 minute range, and there may only be one Deputy per sector per shift, so in affect the Deputy is his own back up.
 
I have asked the question:

So a LEO exemption of the proposed Fienstein AWB is saying that a the life of a police officer confronting a suspect is more important than my life was5 minutes before when that same suspect kicked in my door and shot me?

And I get the same answer every time:

No, but police officers are highly trained!

I proceed to laugh out loud!

They don't have an argument that Cops for some reason deserve semi-auto weapons and civilians don't! Simple.
 
Even here in the "Vanilla-Ville" Northern Chicago Suburbs I see AR's in Police Cars all the time, more so than even shotguns now a days.

I was visiting my Dad over in Northfield about a year ago, I drive right by the "back" of the police station on my way home. While waiting at a stopsign I watched an officer going on duty removing his AR from a bag and "checking it out" before putting it back in his trunk. BTW for those not familiar with this area Northfield is a small town of about 5000 people with about zero violent crimes per year. The PD consists of 21 officers but they only have about half as many cars. Most of what they do consists of Traffic stops and DV calls.
 
Not many volunteer police officers in my area. For education and safety level of job they are paid above average.

I think the issue is that some departments just don’t have the money to provide one for each officer, but allow them to buy their own.
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DOD will send any CLEO that requests it a crate full of guns at no charge. As many as the department has full time officers.
 
I knew a man who retired from the Franklin County (MO) Sherrifs Dept in ~1970. He told me he carried a variety of rifles in his car over the years. In the early days it was a Remington model 8 (one of the earliest semi-auto rifles). Later he had an M1 Carbine and also a lever action in 35 Remington (presumably a marlin 336).
 
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