Legalities of selling more than 1 gun?

[Frank Ettin]

It appears that a C&R license would not help the OP. He's talking about investing in "serialized parts." That sounds the lowers of certain common types of semi-auto actions which could be made into rifles or handguns. Such would not qualify as Curio & Relics.

 

[Hal]

True - that's what he said @ first.

He modified his stance though after reading through all the red tape and "gotchas".

I'm just offering up the C&R path as an viable firearm alternative to precious metals.

 

[dogtown tom]

Grizz12 what are "serialized parts"?

Some of the explanations above are not exactly correct. In part because "serialized parts" doesn't necessarily mean firearm.

Federal law and ATF regulations require firearms to have a serial number. While many "parts" of a particular firearm may have a serial number......only one is REQUIRED, and it is almost always on the frame or receiver of the firearm.

Here is a link to the ATF regulation:http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=b8d75051f6b5afd0b1da5a0cc73b85a0&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.6.1.2&rgn=div8

Some firearms have been granted a variance and permitted to have the serial# placed on another part of the firearm.......such as the Sig P250. It has a "fire control group" which is serialized as "the firearm" and does not have a serial number on the plastic grip frame. Same with some Keltec pistols.

So why isn't "serialized part" always a firearm?
Because it is not uncommon to see the serial number repeated on several parts of a firearm. Often collectors want "all matching parts", meaning that the receiver, barrel, bolt, etc have the same serial#. Sometimes it's only a partial# or the last three digits.

Older Browning Hi Powers often show the complete serial# on frame, slide and barrel......all "serialized parts", but only the frame is regulated as a firearm under Federal law. Same with Mausers, AK's and dozens of other firearms.

The OP could buy and sell a metric ton of "serialized parts" completely legally, without an FFL. But if those "serialized parts" are actually firearms.......he better get an FFL.

 

[dogtown tom]

wayneinFL

Quote:
Me: "What's a cease a desist letter?"
IOI: "Telling him he needs an FFL before he sells those lowers"

I don't know if they actually did so.

I think you skate on very thin ice by buying guns with the intent to "flip" them for profit. One a month probably won't get noticed, but one a week?

The hell of it is that there's a huge gap in the law here. If he's doing this in hopes of making a profit, he has to have a license, but he can't have a license unless he is engaged in the business of selling firearms for profit. He can't buy them, but he can't sit on them, either. Not to mention that it's very difficult to "do the right thing" and get a license, unless he's zoned commercial and has permission from his city/county.

Well, thats exactly the point of the cease and desist letter........my buyer purchased those AR lowers with the intent to flip them for profit. ATF sent the letter to make him aware that selling them would require an FFL. When he purchased those lowers he became "engaged in the business".

Whether it makes it difficult on my buyer to get his FFL isn't ATF's problem......it's the buyers. You want to buy/sell/trade/invest/speculate on firearms? You darn well better know what the law requires.

 

[TJH3781]

A couple of things you should do when selling off a collection is to establish, through documents, when you obtained each item & your cost basis for every item sold. If most were held for a long period of time, the sales may indicate that they were an either an investment or were personal items, not a trade or business activity. Profit maybe a different issue. A sale loss on a personal item is probably not deductible, but a profit maybe taxable.

 

[44 AMP]

........my buyer purchased those AR lowers with the intent to flip them for profit. ATF sent the letter to make him aware that selling them would require an FFL. When he purchased those lowers he became "engaged in the business".

A small point, he was not "engaged in the business" when he bought them. Hence the warning ATF letter. He would be "engaged in the business" when he sells them.

You can buy any amount for your own personal use. Even 100 AR lowers. Yes, today you will be on some watch list if you do that, but you can do it, and they can't do anything about it, unless/until you go to sell them.

Then it comes down to how convincing an argument can be made. Say I have 100guns, acquired over decades, and decide for what ever reason I need money more than guns, I could sell them all, either as one lot, or having a table at 18 different gun shows over 6 months, and its doubtful even the most zealous prosecutor would look twice.

Buying 100 guns (or just stripped receivers) at once? Even if you sit on them for a decade, they are going to look closely to see if you are technically engaged in the business.

Another case, I knew a guy, Big into Contenders. He was a serious hobbyist. Had a table at all the shows, ran the circuit in about 3 states. Bought some things, traded some things sold some things. Did that for several years. Ran into the ATF (eventually) because he didn't have an FFL. After him being gone off the circuit for several months, he came back. Although it took some time, he was officially ruled a "hobbyist" and not "engaged in the business".

because the law is so vague, the details really matter, and each case is judged by the specifics.

I knew of another guy, who was always "selling from his personal collection". However, his "personal collection" always included a number of new in the box Jennings, Brycos, and other cheap handguns. No matter how many he sold, his "personal collection" was never depleted, show after show. ATF ruled he was engaged in the business, and he went away. Don't know if he became a long term guest in govt housing or not, but haven't seen him at any shows in years now....

 

[thallub]

This Baltimore Police officer was convicted of selling firearms without a license:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-01-23/news/1997023071_1_atf-mitchem-federal-firearms-license

This guy sold a bunch of AK-47 rifles:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/sc-man-pleads-guilty-illegal-gun-sales-nc-0

This guy was warned by the BATFE but continued to sell guns:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/1900533-12/check-man-gets-6-months-in-prison-for.html

There have been some significant acquittals. In one case the government witness was a convicted murderer.

http://www.examiner.com/article/naples-gun-acquittal-shows-disturbing-trend-federal-prosecutions