Legalities of selling more than 1 gun?

T

Tangentabacus

New member
Feel free to move this if I'm in the wrong area.

Can anyone help me on the legalities of selling a large amount of personally owned fire arms? Like if I bought a handful of rifles and down the road decided I didn't want them anymore and wanted to sell all of them what type of things should I look out for or stay away from so as not to get on some watch list somewhere (aside from simply not selling my guns).

Scenario: I accumulate 25 guns over a long time period and I decide for whatever reason I want to get rid of them.

Thanks for the input.
 
Key phrase "over a long time period". Don't sweat it. People do this all the time for one reason or another. They lose interest, need the money, find out they're dying, get divorced, they're old...etc...etc.

If you are doing it one your own and not through an estate/auction house or not using a FFL for the transfers/shipments - you may want to state that you are liquidating your private collection.
 
If all you "collect" are 3rd and 4th gen Glock 17's, you might have a problem. But, think about what's in you collection. If it's anything like mine it'll have lots of unrelated older rifles and handguns from various makers. It's not like I purchased that Gwinn Armpistol or Megastar .45 with the idea of dealing in firearms - clearly these (and others) are guns that would have to have been accumulated or collected over a long period of time.

I would not have fear of BATFE trying to give me a problem if I decided to lay out all of my guns on a gun show table (if gun shows are still allowed) when the time comes for the purposes of liquidating much of what I own. In fact, I think it might be fun!
 
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Out here, you can just rent a table at a show and sell them, private sales, the show will do a background check on each sale, or you can get a dealer at the next table to run the checks.

The ATF won't care, you are not a dealer, and it's a one-time event, even if it takes 3 or 4 shows to get rid of it all. As long as you are not buying and selling guns, just liquidating what you have, you're fine. You can even trade bits of your collection for something else if you want, if you think what you get will sell faster.

Other options are consignment to a show dealer or gun shop, an auction by an FFL, wholesale 'em all to a buyer in one deal, that kind of thing.
 
The question for the seller would be when under applicable law he becomes a "dealer" and therefore requires a license. And that can be a hard question to answer.

  1. Under federal law, one needs an FFL to engage in the business of a dealer in firearms. "Engaged in the business" is defined at 18 USC 921(a)(21)(C), emphasis added:
    (21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

    (A)...

    (B) ...

    (C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;...
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    • The operative concepts are (1) devoting time, attention and labor; (2) doing so regularly as a trade or business; (3) the repetitive purchase and resale of guns; and (4) intending to make money.

    • "Livelihood" simply means:
      1: means of support or subsistence
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    • Nothing in the statutory definition of "engaged in the business" requires that it be one's only business or means of support. It could be a side business, a secondary business or one of several ways you have of bringing money into the household.

      • What matters is that you're doing it regularly to make money. You don't even necessarily need to make a profit to be "engaged in business."

      • People go into business all the time and wind up not making money. It's not that they're not engaged in business; it's just that they're not very good at it.

    • But an occasional sale is not being "engaged in the business." Where is the the line between an occasional sale and the repetitive purchase and resale?

      • That's not clear from the statutes.

      • So the question becomes whether there's been any useful judicial clarification.

  2. Let's look at what some courts have said.

    • The Third Circuit, in upholding a conviction of dealing in firearms without a license noted (U.S. v. Tyson, 653 F.3d 192 (3rd Cir., 2011), at 200-201, emphasis added):
      ...By the statute's terms, then, a defendant engages in the business of dealing in firearms when his principal motivation is economic (i.e., “obtaining livelihood” and “profit”) and he pursues this objective through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. Palmieri, 21 F.3d at 1268 (stating that “economic interests” are the “principal purpose,” and “repetitiveness” is “the modus operandi ”). Although the quantity and frequency of sales are obviously a central concern, so also are (1) the location of the sales, (2) the conditions under which the sales occurred, (3) the defendant's behavior before, during, and after the sales, (4) the price charged for the weapons and the characteristics of the firearms sold, and (5) the intent of the seller at the time of the sales. Id. (explaining that “the finder of fact must examine the intent of the actor and all circumstances surrounding the acts alleged to constitute engaging in business”). As is often the case in such analyses, the importance of any one of these considerations is subject to the idiosyncratic nature of the fact pattern presented...
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    • And the Fifth Circuit noted (United States v. Brenner (5th. Cir., 2012, No. 11-50432, slip opinion), at 5-6, emphasis added):
      ...the jury must examine all circumstances surrounding the transaction, without the aid of a "bright-line rule". United States v. Palmieri, 21 F.3d 1265, 1269 (3d Cir.), vacated on other grounds, 513 U.S. 957 (1994). Relevant circumstances include: "the quantity and frequency of sales"; the "location of the sales"; "conditions under which the sales occurred"; "defendant's behavior before, during, and after the sales"; "the price charged"; "the characteristics of the firearms sold"; and, "the intent of the seller at the time of the sales". Tyson, 653 F.3d at 201.
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    • The Sixth Circuit noted (United States v. Gray (6th Cir., 2012, No. 11-1305, slip opinion), at 8):
      ...However, "a defendant need not deal in firearms as his primary business for conviction." United States v. Manthey, 92 F. App'x 291, 297 (6th Cir. 2004)....
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    • And in upholding Gray's conviction the Sixth Circuit also noted (Gray, at 8-9):
      ...We have previously held that evidence was sufficient to support a conviction under § 922(a)(1)(A) where it showed (1) that the defendant frequented flea markets and gun shows where he displayed and sold guns; (2) that the defendant offered to sell guns to confidential informants on multiple occasions and actually sold them three different guns on two different occasions; (3) and...that the defendant bought and sold guns for profit. See United States v. Orum, 106 F. App'x 972, 974 (6th Cir. 2004)...
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    • In affirming a conviction of dealing in firearms without a license, the Ninth Circuit stated (U.S. v. Breier, 813 F.2d 212 (C.A.9 (Cal.), 1987), at 213-214, emphasis added):
      ...Courts have fashioned their own definitions of the term. For example, we have previously stated "that where transactions of sale, purchase or exchange of firearms are regularly entered into in expectation of profit, the conduct amounts to engaging in business." United States v. Van Buren, 593 F.2d 125, 126 (9th Cir.1979) (per curiam). In United States v. Wilmoth, 636 F.2d 123 (5th Cir. Unit A 1981), the Fifth Circuit stated that to prove the status of the accused as one engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, "the Government must show a greater degree of activity than the occasional sale of a hobbyist." Id. at 125. "It is enough to prove that the accused has guns on hand or is ready and able to procure them for the purpose of selling them from time to time to such persons as might be accepted as customers." Id.; accord United States v. Carter, 801 F.2d 78, 82 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 107 S.Ct. 657, 93 L.Ed.2d 712 (1986); United States v. Burgos, 720 F.2d 1520, 1527 n. 8 (11th Cir.1983)....
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  3. So the bottom line is that there really doesn't appear to be a safe harbor, i. e., a set of specific, clearly defined conditions which, if satisfied, definitely get you off the hook.

  4. But the bottom line is that if a federal prosecutor, looking at the totality of the circumstances and all the factors discussed in the various cases, decides that he can first convince a grand jury that there's probable cause to believe you're buying and selling guns as a trade or business, and then convince a trial jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you're buying and selling guns as a trade or business, he very well might prosecute you.
 
Leave it to a lawyer to give you the most complete and comprehensive answer possible and still not give you a clear yes or no.;)

Unfortunately this isn't because of lawyers, this is because of a ridiculously vague law.
 
First thing you would do is send me a PM saying "I have some guns for sale", I'd ask "What guns and price?", and you'd answer "xxx and $xxx" and then I'd say "Cool where do you wish to meet up so I can give you money and you can give me guns?" and you'd say "We can meet at a local gunshop thats friendly and cool (like Wild West Guns)" and I'd say "Awesome, see you there in an hour".

:D
 
Dang... That answer was a ton more thorough than I expected. Here's why I ask. I have an "in" to buy a large quantity of serialized parts and wish to hold on to them as an "investment". Some people invest in gold, silver, stocks, I will invest a small portion (less than $1,000) of money into serialized firearm parts that I have good confidence will be nearly impossible to find in our future at some juncture.

So, I am neither selling nor buying guns for the intent of bringing money into my home. I am buying these parts as an investment and will sit on them for a long period of time until their value triples or more. Now I haven't bought anything yet and before I do I want to be reasonably sure that I won't get into hot water over this. From the sounds of it the fact that I'm sitting on it for a long time and that I am not turning around and directly selling them changes things to be in my favor.

Anyone else doing this? I'd be curious to see what other people think about this on a fiscal stand point as well as legal if anyone else is or has done something like this.
 
Well, since this is not the same as your original question, the answers you have received so far may be less then useful.

Now you will get better answers to your real question, but I don't think they will be what you are expecting.

To be absolutely sure you may want to be even more specific this time around.
 
lcpiper said:
...To be absolutely sure you may want to be even more specific this time around.
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Or maybe not. In fact it might be a better idea for the OP to discuss this with his own lawyer. That way the discussion will be confidential, and the OP will be getting an opinion he can rely on from someone professionally qualified to give it.

Tangentabacus said:
...So, I am neither selling nor buying guns for the intent of bringing money into my home. I am buying these parts as an investment and will sit on them for a long period of time until their value triples or more...
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You've contradicted yourself. If you are buying something which is not income producing (paying dividends or interest) as an investment, you are buying it to later sell to bring money into the home. That's what an investment is.

And remember one of the things the Third Circuit said in Tyson:
...dealing in firearms when his principal motivation is economic ...
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Also, I think it might be potential issue that the OP is considering buying:
...a large quantity of serialized parts...that I have good confidence will be nearly impossible to find in our future at some juncture....
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!8 USC 921(a)(21)(C) allows for:
...occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;...
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The OP isn't considering the occasional buying or selling of one or more guns as part of his hobby of collecting guns. He is considering a bulk purchase of regulated gun parts for speculation.

I don't think it can be a foregone conclusion that the OP's plan, as he has thus far described it, would be lawful without his having an FFL.

I also don't think it's a particularly good idea for the OP to continue to discuss his plans with strangers in public.
 
Frank Ettin

Also, I think it might be potential issue that the OP is considering buying:
Quote:
...a large quantity of serialized parts...that I have good confidence will be nearly impossible to find in our future at some juncture....
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!8 USC 921(a)(21)(C) allows for:
Quote:
...occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;...
Click to expand...

The OP isn't considering the occasional buying or selling of one or more guns as part of his hobby of collecting guns. He is considering a bulk purchase of regulated gun parts for speculation.

I don't think it can be a foregone conclusion that the OP's plan, as he has thus far described it, would be lawful without his having an FFL.
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I agree.

In early 2010 I had a customer buy one hundred AR lowers for investment. An "expert" friend advised him to do so "because Obama is going to outlaw them". When I did the transfer I warned him that he might be contacted by ATF for such a quantity purchase of identical firearms, and that selling them might ultimately cause him problems.;)

In September 2010 I had an ATF compliance inspection............guess what book the IOI choose to look at first?:D Yep the one that has the same guys name repeated across the first six pages.

IOI: "Is this guy a dealer?"
Me: "No"
IOI: "Why does he buy 100 stripped AR lowers?"
Me: "I think he believes it will be a good investment"
IOI: "I need a copy of his 4473.....we'll send him a cease and desist letter"
Me: "What's a cease a desist letter?"
IOI: "Telling him he needs an FFL before he sells those lowers"

I don't know if they actually did so.

I think you skate on very thin ice by buying guns with the intent to "flip" them for profit. One a month probably won't get noticed, but one a week?:rolleyes:
 
Me: "What's a cease a desist letter?"
IOI: "Telling him he needs an FFL before he sells those lowers"

I don't know if they actually did so.

I think you skate on very thin ice by buying guns with the intent to "flip" them for profit. One a month probably won't get noticed, but one a week?
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The hell of it is that there's a huge gap in the law here. If he's doing this in hopes of making a profit, he has to have a license, but he can't have a license unless he is engaged in the business of selling firearms for profit. He can't buy them, but he can't sit on them, either. Not to mention that it's very difficult to "do the right thing" and get a license, unless he's zoned commercial and has permission from his city/county.
 
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wayneinFL said:
The hell of it is that there's a huge gap in the law here....
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That's very true. And I suggest that we leave any further discussion of the legal issues and risks to the OP and his lawyer -- that is if the OP want to pursue this.

The OP would not be doing himself any good telling everyone in the world with Internet access what his plans are. And we're unlikely to be able to be any real help.

The OP also asked:
...Anyone else doing this? I'd be curious to see what other people think about this on a fiscal stand point as well as legal if anyone else is or has done something like this.
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This may stay open for comments responsive to that question. But if, after a reasonable time, no one has anything useful to contribute on that point or we find ourselves still stuck in the legal morass, I'll close the thread.
 
Grizz12 said:
what are "serialized parts"?
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The serialized part carries the primary serial number. It is considered to be the firearm for regulatory purposes under federal law. Buying, selling, and shipping of most other parts is not regulated by the Feds, although local laws vary. However, if you are "engaged in the business" of buying and selling serialized parts, this requires an FFL, even if the firearms are totally stripped down to ONLY that single part.

The serialized part of most bolt and lever rifles is the receiver; this also applies to most semi-auto rifles with single-piece receiver. For most modular semi-autos, such as AR or FAL type rifles, it is the lower receiver. For almost all revolvers, it is the frame. For semi-auto pistols, it varies; it's most often the frame, but is sometimes the slide or the barreled receiver.

Here's two frequently cited and easy-to-understand examples.

(1) An AR upper is not the serialized part. If you own several different AR uppers but only one lower, from a legal perspective, you only own a single AR.

(2) The serialized part of a Browning Buckmark pistol is the frame. This means that barrels may be bought and sold via mail order without an FFL transfer. OTOH the serialized part of the comparable Ruger Mk-series is the barreled receiver. Hence, barreled receivers for Rugers require FFL transfers.
 
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Like if I bought a handful of rifles and down the road decided I didn't want them anymore and wanted to sell all of them...
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I am buying these parts as an investment and will sit on them for a long period of time until their value triples or more.
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These two statements are contradictory.

You won't be deciding "down the road" that you don't want them anymore, you would be buying them with the intent to sell them when the value rises sufficiently.
...serialized firearm parts...
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For the purposes of this discussion, what you mean by this clause is "firearms".
 
The OP's original post implied that he was a collector acquiring a bunch of firearms over time. People sell collections in bulk all the time. Like I'd said - divorce, money problems, illness...etc...cause people to sell entire collections in a short period of time. No issues with that at all as long as you can show that the firearms were acquired over a long period of time - years... It doesn't matter if they were all Glock 17's or Sig 226's.

However the OP, based on his additional details, is buying in bulk with an intent to sell - at some point in the future for a profit. That's basically the definition of an investment, right? He does this w/o a FFL and there are going to be problems with the ATF if they find out.
 
Yeah it's all speculation at this point. What I may or may not do is totally up in the air but this whole thread answers lots of questions I have had and pondered.

Seems investing in guns as an alternative to precious metals and resources is way more complicated than just buying a whole bunch of stuff and selling it later. Which I knew already but now my whole perspective is a bit different and more cautious. Even still I am realizing how important it is to be extremely careful when selling your own guns to other people.

Thanks for the great info. You guys are a wealth of information to someone who never spent time around guns as a child and never was exposed to them until a few years ago. All of this is a new and foreign concept to me and most everything I've learned has had a lot to do with you guys.
 
Seems investing in guns as an alternative to precious metals and resources is way more complicated than just buying a whole bunch of stuff and selling it later.
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You might want to check out C&R if you're still wanting to invest in firearms.
There's a sub forum here where you can ask questions about it.
 
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