Legal to transport guns given by VA father to FL (son)?

Eagle Eye said:
Does this Fed knowledge depend on the dates of acquisition?
Click to expand...
What difference does Fed knowledge make? The question was whether or not it's legal for the father who lives in Virginia to just hand over the guns to his son who live in Florida. The answer is ... no, it is not legal, pursuant to Federal laws.

I doubt very much anyone on this forum thinks these are good laws, but they ARE the laws. Doing the transfer without going through an FFL in Florida is not legal, whether or not any "authorities" ever find out about it.
 
shootniron, the only reason I know about all this is from my military transfers, and a couple sales I had questions about.

I asked some local LEO friends, in one instance, and was given very bad advice... the ATF guy never got back to us (that was one of my main aggravations - I was trying to follow the rules; guess a consultation with a lawyer might not have been a bad idea).

Anyway, luckily for me there was a thread about interstate transfer requirements on TFL at about that time, and it was pointed out to me by Fiddletown and a few other resident lawyers that I had been given incorrect advice, and needed to involve an FFL.

Would anything have happened? Probably not. Could it have? Yes... and my job requires a security clearance, so arrests and investigations are NOT something I desire.

If you play the odds, nothing could ever come of it. However, in the unlikely case of a problem... Federal felony conviction; fine; loss of firearm privileges; loss of clearances; loss of employability. Or, I could pay $25 for an FFL transfer and never worry about it.

See what I mean?
 
shovel99 said:
A good friend's father is going to gift his collection to my friend Jack. Is it legal for his father to give the guns to him in VA... and Jack to drive home to FL with them in his possession? Peaceable carry? I presume they should draw up a bill of sale for each at $1, sign and date.
Click to expand...
This is the part that caught my eye. If the collection is a gift, it's a gift. If it's a sale, it's a sale. If there's a bill of sale, even for $1, it's a sale and not a gift. I mention this because my understanding is that if the father sells 10 or more firearms in a year, he's "in the business" of dealing in firearms. That would mean (assuming that the father doesn't have an FFL) is dealing without a license. Problem! Please understand that I have not thoroughly researched this issue, so take my comments with that in mind.
 
If the collection is a gift, it's a gift. If it's a sale, it's a sale.
Click to expand...

In this case, gift or sale doesn't matter. It's still an ownership change.

my understanding is that if the father sells 10 or more firearms in a year, he's "in the business" of dealing in firearms.
Click to expand...

Nope. There is no hard number that determines whether or not it's a business.
 
And that is why I add a disclaimer. Thanks, Doyle. I'll do some more research on this.

I know it's still an ownership change, but I'd still be leery of making out a bill of sale when it's a gift. It my not matter for FFL purposes, but I think it wise, generally, to be clear as to what the transaction was.
 
[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL.

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer is in compliance with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complied with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).
 
Last edited:
No bills of sale. It's not a sale it's a gift.
Va and Florida do not have gun registration.

Sonny drives up and Dad says enjoy them. Sonny is legal to have them in VA.
Sonny sticks the guns (unloaded) in the truck of his car.
Sonny drives back to Fla. Sonny is legal in Fla.
Sonny heads for the range and starts sighting in.

An FFL transfer is not needed.

AFS
 
AFS, fiddletown just cited the USC that says you are flat out wrong. He and Aguila Blanca, both lawyers, say you are wrong. Why would you give advice that is illegal?

Note: It's against TFL rules to advocate intentionally breaking the law.
 
AirForceShooter said:
...Sonny drives up and Dad says enjoy them. Sonny is legal to have them in VA.
Sonny sticks the guns (unloaded) in the truck of [his car.
Sonny drives back to Fla. Sonny is legal in Fla.
Sonny heads for the range and starts sighting in.

An FFL transfer is not needed...
Click to expand...
Wrong. If your advice is followed, Sonny and Dad have committed federal felonies.

See my immediately preceding post. An FFL is needed for a transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another -- even if they are parent and child.

Let's bread it down:
AirForceShooter said:
...Sonny drives up and Dad says enjoy them. Sonny is legal to have them in VA...
Click to expand...
Maybe Sonny is legal to have the guns in Virginia, and maybe not. See 18 USC 922(a)(5), emphasis added:
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;...
Click to expand...
So Dad, who lives in Virginia, can't give Sonny, who Dad must know lives in Florida (another State) a gun. Except he can loan him a gun for temporary use for a lawful, sporting purpose.

AirForceShooter said:
...

Sonny sticks the guns (unloaded) in the truck of [his car.
Sonny drives back to Fla. Sonny is legal in Fla....
Click to expand...
No Sonny is not legal. He has committed a federal felony. See 18 USC 922(a)(3), emphasis added:
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;...
Click to expand...
Note that in subparagraph (B) the reference to (b)(3) of 18 USC 922 refers to the section allowing an out-of-state FFL to effect the transfer of a long gun.

So if Sonny gets a gun from Dad in Virginia, he violates 18 USC 922(a)(3) by just driving it back to his home in Florida.
 
AirForceShooter said:
No bills of sale. It's not a sale it's a gift.
Va and Florida do not have gun registration.

Sonny drives up and Dad says enjoy them. Sonny is legal to have them in VA.
Sonny sticks the guns (unloaded) in the truck of his car.
Sonny drives back to Fla. Sonny is legal in Fla.
Sonny heads for the range and starts sighting in.

An FFL transfer is not needed.

AFS
Click to expand...

Wrong.
 
BATF answer to this exact question:

It totally depends on local laws as to how the inheritance takes place. As far as the federal government is concerned, a gun can be taken across state lines to deliver as either an inheritance or gift as long as it is legal for the person receiving the gun to own it at their location. The transfer does not have to go through a FFL unless state law requires it.

These might help.

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm)
ATF Online - Publication 5300.5 State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/22edition.htm)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
AirForceShooter said:
BATF answer to this exact question:

It totally depends on local laws as to how the inheritance takes place. As far as the federal government is concerned, a gun can be taken across state lines to deliver as either an inheritance or gift as long as it is legal for the person receiving the gun to own it at their location. The transfer does not have to go through a FFL unless state law requires it.
Click to expand...
(emphasis mine)

I can't get your links to work, but we don't have any information to indicate that this is an inheritance. The OP said it was a gift. That's a different deal.
 
armsmaster270 said:
...What if dad loans sonny the guns and he takes them back home then dad passes away before he can return them?...
Click to expand...
The statutes refer specifically to bequest (a gift under a will) or intestate succession (transfer of someone's property who dies without a will). These things can take place only after one has died. And the loan exception referred to in 922(a)(5) doesn't excuse taking the guns home to another State in violation of 922(a)(3).

If Sonny takes the guns home to Florida while Dad is still alive, Sonny has already committed a federal felony, and Dad's subsequent death won't change that.

AirForceShooter said:
BATF answer to this exact question:

It totally depends on local laws as to how the inheritance takes place. As far as the federal government is concerned, a gun can be taken across state lines to deliver as either an inheritance or gift as long as it is legal for the person receiving the gun to own it at their location. The transfer does not have to go through a FFL unless state law requires it....
Click to expand...
And where exactly is that answer? Your links don't work for me either.

The statutes are the law and control, and the statutes don't say anything about a "gift." They only refer to bequest or intestate succession, and that happens only after death. If Dad is still alive, any rules relating to inheritance are irrelevant.
 
Guns willed to an individual, and given at death do not required a FFl to do the transfer as far as the ATF is concerned.

US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
From US Code Title 18 Part 1, Chapter 44 Section 922 (Page 7 – 8.

Jerry
 
JerryM said:
Guns willed to an individual, and given at death do not required a FFl to do the transfer as far as the ATF is concerned....
Click to expand...
Yes, we've said that. But why is it relevant? Where do you see anything about Dad having died and having left Sonny the guns in a will.

And of course, state inheritance laws would apply. That might involve probate and court supervision of the distribution of the assets of the estate.
 
I'm still likeing the "long term loan" idea. Legal transfer hasn't taken place yet and if Dad croaks, the inheritance part takes over.
 
What if dad loans sonny the guns...
Click to expand...
Since others are already beating the inheritance issue to death, let me address the "loan" part. :)

18 USC 922(a)(5)(B) allows the interstate loan of firearms, but only under specific circumstances.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a [licensee]) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a [licensee]) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
Click to expand...
(emphasis mine)

In other words, a loan would only be legal for lawful sporting purposes. "Sporting purposes" is one of those nebulous terms that's only been defined under case law, but it generally means hunting or target competition, and it's usually tied to a specific hunt or event. IOW it's generally not legal for Pappy to lend a gun to Junior to store it indefinitely or to keep it for self-defense, even if the gun could also be used for "sporting purposes" from time to time.

*Footnote: IIRC this was well covered in a thread about a year ago about the legality of storing firearms for an indefinite period of time at an out-of-state relative's house. I can't find the specific thread, but IIRC the consensus was that an FFL transfer was technically required since the relative didn't have any definitive and specific plans to use the guns, even though he/she went hunting from time to time.
 
Doyle said:
I'm still likeing the "long term loan" idea. Legal transfer hasn't taken place yet and if Dad croaks, the inheritance part takes over.
Click to expand...
You haven't been paying attention.

(1) A loan is a transfer. It's a transfer of possession.

(2) Dad may temporarily loan a gun to Sonny. But if Sonny takes it home to Florida, he violates 922(a)(3). (see post 29)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top