Legal issues facing gun modifications

C

cmac65

Inactive
I would like to explore some thoughts, opinions, and reflections on the issue of using a gun for self-defense that has been modified or enhanced. I have started a conversation with someone about whether or not my carry gun which is a Glock 27 with several aftermarket modifications would be a liability to me in a court battle. This is all hypothetical ofcourse, but I would like to give it some forethought so that if I ever have to face this situation in real-life, I will be somewhat prepared. All of the modifications (which I like to think of as enhancments), are useful to me in some way. Mostly because they make the gun more fun to shoot and shoot accurately.
Here is a list of the modifications:

1. Crimson Trace Custom Laser (mounted in front of trigger guard(more of a play-toy)
2. Pierce Magazine Extention Floorplate
3. Extended Slide Release Button
4. Extended Magazine Release Button
5. Lightning Strike Titanium Striker (firing
pin)
6. Lightning Strike Titanium Safety Button
7. Ross Birdsong "Black-T" metal finish
8. Decal-Grip grip tape

I think that I have a neat little 'package' of a gun, but I am interested on other views as to whether of not these modifications would cause me trouble in a court of law. I certainly hope that God forbide I ever have to defend myself using deadly force that the issue of guilt will not be in question as to whether it was justified or not. I also hope that the issue of gun modifications wouldn't come up, but I think that it's good to explore these and other hypothetical questions beforehand. Please, only serious debate and comments should be brought up. Thanks in advance......
 
Massad Ayoob has written reams of material about this very matter. Reading his stuff is quite educational about the problems you might face.

A lot of it depends on where you live, or where "the action" takes place.

In some areas, it won't matter if you are fully customized and tricked out in your gun and ammo--the only issue would be, "Is it self-defense?" In other areas you'll catch hell even if you use a box-stock pellet pistol.

Those mods which make you more accurate, faster, are good. Otherwise, why bother? And the only way to find out is to compete and practice against a stopwatch or electronic timer...

Good luck, Art
 
cmac65, Art's comment about competing is important. Not only builds muscle memory and competence, but also helps explain those modifications that make your firearms work more effectively.
 
The only to mods that are pretty much guaranteed to be targets for an overzealous Prosecutor are;
1. Defeated safetys.
2. Very light trigger pulls.

The defeated safety can lead the Prosecution to the assertion that you were excited, carrying an unsafe weapon and shot the BG unintentionally. This is called Manslaughter and there's a good chance you'd go down for it. (Juries don't know anything about guns, but they think the Prosecution does! Go fig!)

2. Same as above plus the prosecution will argue that you were walking around with a gun that has the infamous "hair trigger" and you probably have a hair trigger yourself.

One other thing to look at is the kind of ammo you carry.
Anything with a name like .45 JJE. (judge, jury and executioner) or the .357 eviserator,
9mm Decapitator. You get the idea, should be avoided like the plague!
I keep looking for a good defense round with the name ".45 Cute and Snuggly kitty cat" but so far, no joy.

The mods you've listed shouldn't be a problem unless you run up against a highly imaginative Prosecutor.
Remember, make damn sure that it's a highly rightous shoot and 99.44 percent of the time, you'll be okay no matter what you used in the fight.


------------------
Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
Don't take my word for it, but I thought that the addition of a Laser aiming device would be open slather for a Prosecutor to ask :

"So Mr.Jones, why didn't you just cripple the man you shot - the Laser sight on your gun would have allowed you to only have shot him in his gun/knife hand, arm/leg. Why did you have to put 5 shots centre of mass the size of a Dime, when you could have obviously only wounded him with such a device fitted ?"

Hey....it's only a thought ! ;)

------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"



[This message has been edited by HS (edited April 12, 1999).]
 
I wish I could say the thought of litigation has never influenced my carry gun decisions but I read Mas Ayoob too!

It's already been stated that you really are better off if you shoot some type of organized competition (I like IDPA) to help justify your mods. My comp gun is a full custom, full size 1911 - my carry gun is a full custom, officer's size 1911 with exactly the same mods except the trigger is about 1 pound heavier. The legal excuse, on the good side, is "That's what I'm used to using in competition and, therefore, better able to use proficiently in self defense."

The prosecuter will just say I spent my leisure time practicing killing people and couldn't wait to try it on the real thing...

Point is, you will have to convince a jury that you did nothing wrong and to do that you will need a good lawyer who KNOWS guns and how to explain to a jury that the mods are "normal" and not part of some "terminator" syndrome. You need to know who this lawyer will be ahead of time so you can call him/her if the time comes.

As for your specific mods, I used to shoot Glocks in IDPA and had a G35 with most of the mods you listed. The extended mag release worked great and never caused a problem for me because I shoot with somewhat "high thumbs". A "low thumb" shooter might accidently trip the catch under recoil causing the mag to prematurely drop. The extended slide stop DID cause me problems because the high thumb could touch the stop under recoil and prematurely lock the slide back. This happened to me several times.

In competition, this could cost me a match but, on the street, it can cost you your life. Too much thinking about litigation can cause a mental malfunction just as deadly as a mechanical one. Like I've said before, if I have to defend myself I'll be happy to make it to litigation. It's better than the alternative. I'm lucky, my lawyer shoots hi power rifle - Master Class - and he does a little IDPA just for fun.
 
Remember this, the gun you shoot some naughty miscreant with is the same gun the local law enforcement will sieze as evidence and retain until the county/state/federal prosecutor declines to press charges. So, in the meantime, your precious gun is being carelessly tossed around by bozos who don't care for it (and that's why they get selected for the property room) and you're down to keeping a low priced non-tricked out gun for self defense. I try to use the inexpensive stuff for self defense (Ruger P85) and the more expensive stuff (1911s, Python, and other expensive stuff) for range and field.
 
Cmac65,

At least you are thinking ahead. There is too much "shoot first" thinking out there. The issue is not just a civil suit. A PA prosecutor in a case where a man used reloads in self defense, said something like "not being content with factory bullets, this vicious killer went to his basement in the dark of the night and concocted bullets designed only to rip and tear human flesh..." The defendant was found not guilty anyhow, but...

Almost any modification to the gun can make it look like you planned a killing. Even getting a CCL has been used to "prove" premeditation. They don't have to prove you planned to kill X, only that you planned to kill someone, and the gun and CCL could do that with the wrong jury. One of the things you accept when you carry a weapon.

You can't deal with every possibility, but you want to try to keep them from being able to say you were "hunting." Example, one fellow on another thread says his friend carries two big Glocks, two little Glocks, two extra mags each, two knives, and nunchucks. To a cop or a prosecutor, that is not self-defense, it is a mass murderer looking for victims.

One gun, and maybe one mag looks like self defense; more looks like you were out looking for someone to kill.
 
Gary, I'll have to disagree with you on your above post. I would rather have to build a new pistol after it had been tossed around then be dead. Which just might happen if you use a cheaper pistol. In my experiences with firearms, in the most part you get what you pay for.
 
Hi, Striker3,

There is a balance. First, a Ruger P85 is not exactly cheap junk. Second, the point isn't that your gun might get trashed, or that you might be killed. The point was, if you kill, what can be used against you. I mentioned a couple of things above.

If you kill someone, even if you feel it was clear self defense, you might still be put on trial for murder one. If you go with the Rambo exotic weapon mentality, you might not be able to build any new weapon - they don't allow lifers to send away for parts kits.

A jury may have members who own handguns or who know people who own them. That revolver in the nightstand is a far cry in their minds from the hi-tech hi-cap superdooper gun exhibited as evidence. The prosecutor will try to make every doodad into something only a mass murderer would ever use. That is the whole point. The question is a good one. Don't flame everyone who is trying to think beyond blowing away some bad guy.

There is an aftermath for both you (unless you are killed) and for other gun owners. Everything you do reflects on you and on us. By all means, carry a gun if you really think you need it and can legally do so, and carry one you feel confidence in. (I know people carry illegally, but I can't even suggest anyone violate the law.) But use a little common sense and think how your gun and rig would look to a jury if you have to use the gun. Anything can be twisted, why provide ammo to people who may be out to put you in a cage.
 
cmac65, Unless Ross Birdsong is Walter's son that modification might get someone in trouble! I hope that there is not some news here I have not heard. In response to your main question, if it gets down to a jury trial who knows. As said above etc.......
I do know from sitting on a trial as a jury member, where the State was pleading a murder case, some of the other members who were not familiar with firearms asked quite a few questions about the particular shotgun involved. 1. What must be done to make this gun shoot. 2. How hard must you pull on the trigger to make it fire. "We had all of the evidence in the jury room so we asked the permission of the Court to let some members of the jury dry fire the shotgun. Permission was given. After that, 12 men and women, white , black,hunter, tennis woman, lawyer "yes we had one on the jury", field hand, California Democrat, recently in our neck of the woods "he was tougher than the tennis women" found the defendant guilty in less than an hour. If no one on the jury could have explained how firearms work to the uneducated this person WOULD HAVE WALKED it was a very sad case where emotions ran high in the jury because the the killer and killed were both in high school. The main thing to remember here is what questions the uneducated will ask and who will answer. Trigger pull comes to mind. Sorry for the long rambling but the entire "What about the gun?" argument really blows me away!
Best to all,
Hank
 
Thanks for all of the great reply so far. Keep them coming. I would like to make a few comments to some of the answers. First, I have started shooting IDPA and would use this in my defense as that the 'tricks' or 'modifications' are part of my hobby of shooting. As far as a PA using the arguement that I was "training to kill", I could find plenty of IDPA shooters that would testify that it is a game or competition not training for killing. If I wanted to train to kill I would join a hate group or militia. I also don't go around thinking about or getting other peoples opinions on the 'best ways' to kill someone. I hope that I never have to even pull my gun on someone much less shoot anyone. And if I ever did, it would not be my hope to kill that person only to stop the attack or threat against myself or other person in my close vicinity. The biggest issue is that I value human life very much and by thinking about the possible 'what ifs' in advance maybe I would be prepared if the time ever arose that I did have to pull my weapon and use it. Maybe I wouldn't panic, etc. One thing is also for sure - It will be the prosecutors job to put me in jail or punish me for my actions and he/she will use all the tricks in the book to do so including trying to paint me as a cold-hearted killer. But depending on the facts of the shoot, my expert witnesses and the fact that I live in the south were guns in the home are very common place, I might survive the court battle. I just wanted to explore this topic a little bit and get other opinions on the matter because I do carry a gun for self defense and if I am going to carry it I must be prepared mentally, emotionally, and legally to shoot someone if I had to. As someone else already stated: The most powerful weapon is the mind. Thanks again and keep the comments coming.

<C.W.>
 
To Hank L above:
What about this gun argument.....blows you away? First, it's not an argument and second, if I shoot someone out of anger, malice, etc. then I will be charged with murder and it will not matter what kind of gun I used. This discussion is assuming that I used my gun in "self defense". If the shooting was deemed justifyable then I wouldn't have to go to criminal court but more than likely,depending on the surviving family members, I would have to go to civil court. Here is where I would assume that the details of the gun, etc. would really be hashed out.
 
It is possible to build and carry a custom gun that doesn't look custom. My normal carry gun is a pre-70 series Colt Lightweight Commander which was built in 1959. When I bought it, this was a cheap, badly abused clunker. I built it up to be a carry gun, but was careful not to go overboard.
The modifications made were:
New barrel with fitted bushing
Wilson beavertail grip saftey
Wilson Trigger
Lowered and flared ejection port
Beveled magazine well
Kings Hardball sights
Trigger pull was adjusted to be smooth and crisp, but was not lightened.
Wilson magazines
A cheap home refinish job.

Two things that were not changed were the factory saftey and slide release.

This gun is very accurate and totally reliable. However, unless you knew just what to look for, it appears to be just an old stock .45 auto. Get the point?

Too many people go overboard when making modifications and the gun literally screams "I am a custom made killing machine!" That is the gun that will get you in trouble.
 
I remembered this from one of Ayoob's articles:

A man was on trial for murder. He shot and killed a man in a righteous shoot. The DA was questioning him..... asked something like "did you shoot to kill" ---- the man paused for a second and then replied, "I shot to LIVE". That stmt pretty well ended the trial and the verdict was not quility!


"SHOOT TO LIVE" is a phrase all of us should become familiar with. Mas has taught me many valuable lessons and I haven't even met him!

-bk40
 
bk40
Shoot to Live!

That's a classic. I missed this one, and I try to read everything Ayoob writes!
Thanks much, it is now a permenant part of my vocabulary!


------------------
Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
As a preface I want to say that this is all just my opinion and we all know what those are like. This may be construed to be advice and it is worth what you are paying for it. I also have modifications done to many firearms and each mod has a 'reason' behind it that may be entered into a court of record. Anything that you read, including a hardcopy of this posting, is admissable as evidence in court if you used the information to make a decision on making a modification to a firearm used in a shooting, if the information was considered in whether or not to shoot, if the info was used for selecting a particular firearm to carry, or if it was used to decide where and/or how many shots are fired. This deals with your mods only.

1) Laser sighting system. Get the training video from CT and how the laser is used as an intermediate step between drawing the gun and shooting the gun. The intimidation factor of the laser shows you took an extra step to try to keep from shooting a person. If you do shoot, the laser was an aid to make the firearm more accurate so the shots go where intended and do not hit bystanders.

2. Extended floorplate. The grip is short and this allows you a more certain grip giving you more control and accuracy when shooting. Protecting bystanders.

3. Extended slidestop. So you do not need to alter the grip on the firearm after changing mags. To alter the grip to not be the correct grip you start with reduces the amount of control you have on your pistol. To not be in complete control at all times is unsafe.

4. Extended mag release button. See 3 above.

5. Titanium striker. Improves accuracy by decreasing lock time and improves smoothness of the trigger. This helps shot placement.

6. Safety button. Plastic wears and the titanium is stronger. Also helps improve trigger smoothness.

7. Black-T is Walter Birdsongs finish. Protects your considerable investment from nicks and corrosion. The jurors may wax their cars for the same reason.

8. Any grip improvement. See 2 above.

Note I always refer to a firearm, gun, handgun, or pistol. NEVER A WEAPON. Shows intent. Also if you do not carry EVERYDAY and EVERYWHERE, even in your home, start. You will be asked that question and if you say no you better have a good reason why you decided to carry on the day that you shot someone. You will be fighting premeditation your entire trial. Read everything from Mas that you can get your hands on, he has a great deal of experience and is great source of knowledge on this subject. I won't say that I agree with everything he says, but I certainly agree with almost everything.
 
The 'Shoot to live' response is clever and cute, but I believe the comment was made by a LEO. As a non-LEO it comes off as uncaring and as if you are making a joke out of a play on words. You always shoot to stop a perceived immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm. I did like the answer to the question 'Is this your favorite gun?'. 'It is now!' The response must be given with seriousness and a sound of relief that it worked, not with a smile.
 
cmac65, my above post about the jury was about how most of them were trying their best not to convict the "bad guy" At least the members of this jury were willing to ask questions so that they could convict a person who pointed a shotgun at a human being, who was sitting unarmed in a circle of friends at church, knowing his shotgun was loaded and pulled the trigger. All I'm trying to say is that jurys can be pretty quirky and what does the gun have to do with any shooting of the innocent or the guilty? I'm with you, not against you but I've seen how lawyers go at it and had one chance to see how the lawyers can confuse us ordinary folks.
Regards, Hank
 
Strikere3,

Your point is well taken. I wouldn't trust my life to firearms which susceptible to failure or breakage either and I would gladly use that rare one in a kind type of gun worth a bajillon bucks if I needed it to save my life or the life of a loved one (and a friend). Your other point about getting what you paid for is true too. There's an ad showing a bear on the bend of a mountain trail. He's got a piece of a shirt in his mouth, a Winchester rifle by his feet and you can see a hat roll down the cliff. Lord knows what happened to the hunter. The ad reads, "Lester Bullets - America's Cheapest Ammunition. It usually works." Still trying to get a copy of that "Lester" ad.

My point was that if I have a less expensive gun which works and has been tested and has earned my confidence, like my Ruger P85, I'd rather use that than the bajillon megabuck model gun.

Gary
 
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