Legal Duty to Retreat vs. Moral Duty to Retreat

Does an Armed Citizen have a Moral/Ethical Duty to Retreat (complete safety)


  • Total voters
    216
Status
Not open for further replies.
shooting in self defense from imminent threat is not killing.


While I agree with the rest of your statement, this is simply incorrect.

Killing is to make that which was previously alive to be no longer alive.

You would not kill over property. You would not MURDER in self defense. You most certainly may KILL in SD.
 
And it isnt about what moral code we should abide by (or ethical code, but that seems to be lost in the noise over whose and what moral code should apply)........
But your question reads.."Does an Armed Citizen have a Moral/Ethical Duty to Retreat (complete safety)?"

Therefore all the discussion about morals and ethics is not only topical, but necessary. If I asked "Does a person have a fibiliboob duty to retreat?" I would most definitely have to define what "fibiliboob" means for the question to even be addressable. Morals and ethics are a fluid concept and need to be defined for the question to be answered.
 
Morals and ethics are a fluid concept and need to be defined for the question to be answered.

If the morals of the situation were so tightly definable then the question would require little more than a text book response. It would be no more than quoting the "law".
 
If the morals of the situation were so tightly definable then the question would require little more than a text book response. It would be no more than quoting the "law".
And it would be a very boring thread. The great part of this thread is it illustrates how different people have different values and see the same situation completely differently.
 
The great part of this thread is it illustrates how different people have different values and see the same situation completely differently.

Indeed... and yet there is a fine line between "great" and "scary", a situation wherein morals so completely lack definition that we begin to function on our own whimsical ideals.
 
shooting is not killing.

shooting is shooting.

killing is finishing life.

shooting is stopping the dangerous threat.

I would shoot in self defense.
 
I think there is agreement that killing is an act of high moral consequence and not to be taken lightly. While we shoot to stop, the discussion hinges about the implicit risk of killing. The discussion might be different if we all carried phasers on stun.

We argue about the morality of killing or taking the risk to kill in the OP situation where it can be avoided.

People's views of morality and its origins do differ. Whether it comes from internal feelings of conscience or strict adherence to the law are different stages of moral reasoning according to some.
 
Not to thread hijack but by 2001, we were looking at alien monoliths on the moon that taught monkeys the first RKBA lesson but with big bones and head knocking. :D

Someone has tried to develop beam based tasers. Uses a laser to ionize a path to the target and then fire a bolt of electricity at them. Don't think it has worked yet. There are taser shot gun rounds now.

Again, not to hijack but if truly reliable distance stunners were around, would the moral person use them instead of the potentially lethal rounds we use? Separate issue - don't want to hijack, Pax.
 
OldMarksman

Our problem seems to be one of geography. You mention how it is in "many places", as for them I cannot speak. Where I grew up, and currently live, there are no duty to retreat laws. A crime (as you keep referring to the term murder) is not defined by "what if's". (ie. If you could have run away, then the VCA with the gun pointed at your child was not really a threat). If the threat of eminent danger exists, and it can be substantiated, then it is justifiable; threfore, not murder. BTW Anyone who presents the threat of eminent danger, such as attacking with a knife or firearm, forfeits their individual rights. That is why we are so careful to teach students not to engage in the defense of another unless you are 110% certain of ALL the facts of the conflict - as you would inherit the rights of those whom you would defend. Heaven forbid you choose the wrong side based on what you thought you saw.

As practitioners we try to avoid these situations at all costs. But that's the real rub isn't it? If I could plan my next gunfight, I would probably plan to not be in it. "Life is about how well you handle plan B"

The question presented, if I understand correctly, is retreating vs. when to draw the line. There is not one solution for every scenario. Individual judgement must be reserved for any situation at a given time. For most, the answer to the question "What will I do", will not come until it is too late. All I can say is train hard, be that which is good and right, and act with certainty.

Honor, then, should not be so loosely applied. If something is of such great value to you (a loved one, an ideal, etc.) that it is worth "shedding blood" over, be it someone elses OR your own, then it has honor. This honor concept is what won our country's freedom in the beginning, and it is what still drives many men to this day. But as Glenn has eluded to, morals and honor have drifted apart as time has passed. And for that reason what is honorable, where the line is drawn, is often different from one man to the next. And I agree with you Glenn, I think that would make a fantastic topic for discussion in itself.

But as for me and mine, there is honor in defending the lives of the ones who I love and hold dear.
 
Last edited:
Where I grew up, and currently live, there are no duty to retreat laws.

And generally speaking, there are none in most states. But you have to be careful on that. In Missouri, for example, the only relevant reference in the law to the concept of retreat is in the part that states that there is no duty to retreat if the actor is within his domicile or automobile.

However, if a citizen is not in his home, tent, hotel room, or car, he must retreat if safe retreat is possible (for himself and family, of course), but that's not actually stated in the law. It's in the case law, and it traces its origin at least as far back as the origins of the English Common Law, in which the laws of all of our states but one are rooted.

Some states have laws similar to ours, others extend the "castle docrine" to the garage and/or place of bsiness, and still others state that a person need not retreat from any place in which he has a right to be.

Look for something in the law that says that you do not have to retreat if possible, not for the absence of an explicit requirement to retreat. If you don't find it I would assume that the duty to retreat exists unless your attorney says otherwise.

For example, Washington State has no castle law per se, but I understand that binding court rulings have established that the doctrine exists. Lay opinion.

A crime (as you keep referring to the term murder) is not defined by "what if's".

....but by the law, the facts, the evidence, and what a reasonable person would have done....

If the threat of eminent danger exists, and it can be substantiated, then it is justifiable; threfore, not murder.

Necessary but not always sufficient. If a person reasonably believes that the threat is imminent (A, O, J) and that the use of deadly force was necessary, a person would be justified in using deadly force. Of course, unless he is indoors or in his car, where the presumption of imminent danger may exist, he will in most places have the burden of producing evidence to that effect.

And unless it is justified or accidental, homicide is murder.

Here are a couple of good reads on the subject. They are too long to paste.

Read all of this one, but pay particular attention to the section on "preclusion" in the third chapter:

http://www.useofforce.us/

Section IV of this one---AOJ vs ADEE--is worth reading:

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

BTW Anyone who presents the threat of eminent danger, such as attacking with a knife or firearm, forfeits their individual rights.

I don't think that's legally correct.

That is why we are so careful to teach students not to engage in the defense of another unless you are 110% certain of ALL the facts of the conflict - as you would inherit the rights of those whom you would defend. Heaven forbid you choose the wrong side based on what you thought you saw.

Excellent advice!
 
Posted by Glenn E. Meyers:
Not to thread hijack but by 2001, we were looking at alien monoliths on the moon that taught monkeys the first RKBA lesson but with big bones and head knocking.

Someone has tried to develop beam based tasers. Uses a laser to ionize a path to the target and then fire a bolt of electricity at them. Don't think it has worked yet. There are taser shot gun rounds now.

Again, not to hijack but if truly reliable distance stunners were around, would the moral person use them instead of the potentially lethal rounds we use? Separate issue - don't want to hijack, Pax.

Phasers? Aliens? :confused:
What the...oops! Boy, moderators get cut some slack, and on the T&T forum yet in the bargain.:D
 
stargazer,

Actually, he asks a good question ... for another thread. ;)

(That's a hint, y'all.)

... if truly reliable distance stunners were around, would the moral person use them instead of the potentially lethal rounds we use?

pax
 
Donn, I agree with the remark to which you say "HUH?"...
Interfere with my rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness and I will treat the person as no more than a predator in the hen house. Prey upon me? Hope you Prayed!
Brent
 
Wow, missed a lot while I was at work.

Well, Alaska, I'll answer the question you asked today, which is definitively different than the question you asked in the OP. As someone who is so quick to leap on slips of the key with others, or point out the lack of thought exhibited by a post, at least have the integrity to admit that you asked a question that wasn't completely expressing your meaning. In other words, don't write a bad question and blame everyone else for not figuring out your thought process.

How far will you go to avoid killing in a situation where the law allows you to kill? Are you going to pull that trigger as a last resort? The last, final and ultimate resort? You have absolutely and positively no other choice?

I will go as far as reasonably possible. If it is reasonable that my life is in danger, and using my weapon will end the threat, I will use it. Reasonable is the crux. As I have before posted on other threads, reasonable is only definable in the context of the situation. For example, someone breaking into my house presents a threat. However the level of threat presented varies based upon events as interpreted in the moment. If it's my seven year old neighbor breaking in, not much threat. If it's a man with a knife in his hand, game over.

The simple answer is I am required, as a Christian to err on the side of life. However, if someone through their actions, places himself in a position where a choice is forced upon me, the margin of error shrinks considerably.

Since I am not the actor in this situation, any moral stain rests on the BG's soul, not mine. If I take reasonable precautions (in order, fenced in back yard, deadbolt locks on both doors, an alarm, two big dogs, firearms) and the BG overcomes all those, whatever happens is on him.

It's kind of like the reasonable outcome concept in the law. Let's say I rob a bank. If I run from the cops, and during the pursuit cause a fatal accident, then I can be charged with murder. The death is a reasonable outcome, something that is not a surprise, therefore the charge of murder can be brought. Same idea on a moral plane, BG breaks in, in a CASTLE doctrine state; BG gets shot, BG's bad, not mine. His death is a reasonable outcome of his action.

Final answer, BG with a weapon, I have no duty to retreat, if I'm where I'm supposed to be and have taken reasonable precautions
 
Well, Alaska, I'll answer the question you asked today, which is definitively different than the question you asked in the OP.

Really? How so?...please advise how they are different, since you are so quick to ad hom after drawing your unsupported conclusion :p

WildorareyoujustannoyedyouareputonthespotAlaska ™
 
Peetza, you have the same problem as Alaska. On the one hand, you are calling me out, about a semantic difference. If this is a hair-splitting contest, I guess you are doing well. So, the BG isn't truly a home invader until he leaves my home having robbed me.

By that definition, I can't do anything until he acts. He's not really a threat until he shoots or stabs me. If he just waves a knife, he hasn't really done anything. So if the guy kicks my door down and runs when I produce my pistol, but doesn't actually steal anything, the DA can't charge him with home invasion?

So I call BS on you; I say this with great respect. However, you are going to try to have your cake and eat it too. You say I'm wrong for reading into the law, but then read into the OP's question. The OP specifically refers to the armed citizen, no one else.

There fore, the armed citizen, under these laws, has no legal duty to retreat, even if he can do so in complete safety.

The important phrase is "even if he can do so in complete safety." The important word is "he." The OP is asking about the armed citizen's duty to retreat, not worry about others.

The common sense definition, not to mention the legal one, of "complete safety" includes self and others.

So, to seal my victory in this particular hair-splitting contest, find me a definition of complete safety that says what you say it means.

At risk of being flamed, I'll quote another movie "You use that word a lot...I do not think it means what you think it means." :D

BTW, Peetza and Alaska, I love you guys, don't take this as some sort of attack or think I don't respect you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top