Legal consequences of carrying in a business where it's not allowed?

[spacecoast]

No doubt Don P will document exactly what was asked and answered. I am very interested in the response from Mr. Gutmacher.

 

[Don P]

Well here is the response I received from Mr. Jon Gutmacher PA., I'll remove part of my email address only. His answer is at the top of the quote just as I received it

His reply alone doesn't mean anything without also having your email. We all need to see exactly what he is responding to.

Maybe my interpretation was right,

That might be how you interpret the law, but so what? What counts is how the courts will interpret it, and they very well might disagree with you.

likely only if you warned them to leave and they refused

jhg

From: "dpodsiadlo-------.com <dpodsiadlo-------.com
To: gutlaw@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 3:03 PM
Subject:

Name: Don Podsiadlo

Email: dpodsiadlo-------.com

Subject: FFA WEBSITE CONTACT: Legal

Comments: Carrying a CCW on/into property that has a no guns allowed sign. Is it criminal trespass? Have any laws been broken. Is it considered intentional trespass? Could not find the answer in your book. Thanks for your time and the book.

Submit: Send Your Request



--
Thank you for using our contact form.

 

[Woody55]

I am not overly concerned with these laws.

If someone doesn't want me on their property (armed or not) I don't go on their property. Or leave when I figure it out or am asked too.

It's rude to do otherwise.

My doctor has a sign on his office that makes it clear he doesn't want me in there with a weapon. It does not comply with the Texas Penal Code provision that the OP cites. But I would never go in there with a gun.

Funny thing is that he has a revolver in his desk drawer. Go figure!

 

[Pahoo]

Too many signs !!!

I am not overly concerned with these laws.

On the one hand, folks say that they are not overly concerned and then go out of their way to look for signs to read and comply. ....

I have ADHD and unable to read most signs. The only ones I try to remember, are the store's operating hours. ....

Be Safe !!!

 

[Woody55]

@Pahoo,

I am not overly concerned with these laws because I am looking for an indication that I am not welcome. If I don't think I'm welcome, I'm not going in. It doesn't matter whether the indication complies to the law or not. I am not trying to inflict myself on anyone - whether it is my right to do so or not.

Hope that clarifies my statement.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Well here is the response I received from Mr. Jon Gutmacher PA.,...

Interesting and thank you. Note that his reply was (emphasis added):

likely only if you warned them to leave and they refused

Seems a bit vague to me.

Now if I, as a lawyer, were asking the question of another lawyer on behalf of a client who intended to rely on the answer, I'd want a much clearer answer and would ask the question as follows:

Title XLVI, Section 810.08(1) of Florida Statutes defines, in pertinent part, criminal trespass to a structure thusly (emphasis added):

Whoever, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters or remains in any structure ... commits the offense of trespass in a structure...

Assume that a business open to the public has properly posted a sign satisfying any legally applicable criteria at the entrance to the premises (housed within a structure) stating that entry with a firearm is not permitted. If a private citizen lawfully carrying a concealed firearm, having a permit recognized by the State of Florida to do so, were to enter that premises –

1. Could you definitively opine that a Florida court would hold that such entry would by reason of the sign be willful entry without authorization, license or invitation and therefore constitute, by itself, criminal trespass? Why or why not?
   
   
2. Could you definitively opine that a Florida court would hold that such entry would not, notwithstanding the sign, be willful entry without authorization, license or invitation and therefore not constitute, by itself, criminal trespass? Why or why not?

Please answer with the understanding that a person intends to rely on the response in deciding whether or not to enter while lawfully wearing a concealed firearm a properly posted “no firearms” business.

I might want to do such a thing if, for example, I, as a lawyer in a State other than Florida, were representing a client who intended to visit Florida and who wanted a definitive answer to minimize as much as possible any surprises; and my client would expect to pay for the opinion. In fact during the course of my practice I've had occasion to do similar things when a client needed some definitive guidance on a matter of law of another State.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

In Ohio it is just trespassing and a misdemeanor, but I do not know of any cases where someone was asked to leave, even if by a police officer, politely did so and was charged. If you know of the sign it is a violation of law.

I know one theater here has a sign 8 feet up on the side wall of the vestibule. I carried there DOZENS of times before a friend printed there was asked to leave, shown the sign and informed me. I am sure anyone could just claim they did not see it and they have no ground to stand on. When it is right on the door I am not so sure that will work.

 

[Stressfire]

Stressfire,

Look up in your state's penal code the definition of knowingly.

2901.22 Degrees of culpability attached to mental states....(B) A person acts knowingly, regardless of his purpose, when he is aware that his conduct will probably cause a certain result or will probably be of a certain nature. A person has knowledge of circumstances when he is aware that such circumstances probably exist.

Thus the general understanding that if signage is not posted in such a way that one could not possibly neglect to see it, one has not knowingly violated the laws it enforces. If one does not see a sign, one has not knowingly done anything illegal. Seems to be an area of the law where ignorance of it is an excuse. Once you are aware of the existence of the signs, however, you are knowingly breaking the law should you proceed inside while armed.

Is it perfect? Not even close. Generally Ohio CHLers simply avoid these businesses and locations as a matter of course

When it is right on the door I am not so sure that will work.

Precisely, I don't go out of my way to seek out signage, but if it is in fact prominently displayed I take myself and my $ elsewhere