legal barrel length... 18" check... over all legal length ???

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The vast majority has been know to include lemmings hurling themselves off of cliffs. I was waiting for someone to come up with that letter, as I question just how much weight if would hold should anyone other than it as precedence. The problem is that regardless of what Spencer wrote, at the most he set forth in a private letter his opinion of the ATF's position as of that time. ATF has been known to revise its position and the meaning of extreme ends could easily be read as meaning from one extreme to the other when folded. This fits with what someone posted above regarding adjustable length stocks being measured with the stock set in its shortest position.

Maybe you could post your source that says the Feds measure with stocks folded
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Maybe you should read what I wrote in this regard. At most I am saying that they might do just that.

4th Point. I am not saying you are wrong about how a folding stock shotgun's overall length is measured by the Feds, nor am I saying that you are right.
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You guys are claiming how it is measured. All I am saying is your source is non-existent or pretty, almost laughably, weak.
 
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Snyper, You are going to believe what you want to believe. The fact that a letter was sent to a private individual does not establish precedence or estoppel. There are a lot of politics involved and should ATF choose to measure over all length with stocks folded, what prevents it from doing just that? Have someone explain the Chevron decision and the rules of deferral.
 
I would posit that the BATF is somewhat familiar with Auto-Ordnance a manufacturer of a "Auto-Ordnance M1 Carbines, "Paratrooper Folding Stock Model." That being the case, then the BATF should be aware that Auto-Ordnance declares that the overall length of the AOM150 carbine is 35 3/4" and 25 3/4" (stock folded).

Century Arms advertises that the overall length of their M70 AB2 Folding Semi-Auto Rifle, Cal. 7.62x39mm (Product ID: RI1588) as being "...overall: 34.25" and 24" (stock folded)
 
Ok, so its a personal letter. When
John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
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sends you a letter, (on ATF stationary, I would assume) identifying himself, his position and the official policy of the ATF (and how it relates to your specific question) I would take that as authoritative.

Yes, the ATF has changed its mind, more than once. But I have yet to hear of anyone ever being prosecuted because they acted in good faith on the ATF instructions, at the time, even though the ruling might have been changed since.

And, as a general rule of debate, if you make a point, different from/ at odds with the generally accepted point, it is incumbent on you to provide the proof of your point of view, not us.

Note also that some states (New York for one that I know of,) have, for generations set the state minimum barrel lengths ABOVE Federal minimum requirement. In NY, shotguns must have a 20" (not 18") barrel. (not absolutely certain that is still the law, but it was in the 60 & 70s when I lived there, and I don't think they changed it.)

Also the NY min rifle barrel was 18", not the 16" of the Fed law. We always figured this was why Remington carbines had 18.5" barrels. :D
 
44Amp:

1. Where is this debate being held, because I know of none.

2. I notice that you agree that ATF has been known to change its mind, but have not offered any opinion as to whether it will change its mind in regard to the measurement of folding stock long arms.

3. For that matter, I don't see where ATF has commited to either method of measurement. A private letter ruling is just that, if the Spe3ncer letter is to be treated like a private letter ruling by the IRS. You can argue by analogy to your case, but a private letter to another is not binding or precedential in your case.

4. I am still waiting for someone to come up with an argument as to why ATF cannot opt to measure with stocks folded.

5. I never said anything about prosecuting anyone nor did I see where anyone else has mentioned prosecution until your post.

I have to cook.
 
I am still waiting for someone to come up with an argument as to why ATF cannot opt to measure with stocks folded.
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So your whole premise is now based on what they "might" possibly do in the future, while ignoring what they actually do, and have done for many years.

Using your "logic", none of the regulations mean anything at all
 
"The ATF has been known to change its mind..."
Yes, but is there any proof or suggestion they have? No.
Does that mean they are continuing to measure barrel length and overall length the way they always have? Yep.

Folding stocks are measured unfolded because a rifle is intended to be shot from the shoulder and without a stock that's not possible. We have concrete proof that a rifle can be shorter than 26" OAL if it has a folding stock.
M1 carbine..........25.75
AK underfolder.....24.0
UZI carbine..........24.0
Two inches isn't 'close enough not to matter', not by a long shot.

As for collapsible/adjustable stocks:
Grendell R31.................23.5 collapsed
AR15.........................+/- 31 collapsed
Hk94A3 16-inch barrel....27.5 collapsed
 
I sure do not understand the issues as arisen here. It is simple - 18" or more for the barrel, 26" minimum length for the gun as it would be shot from the shoulder. The folding shotgun (folded) is not designed to be (and physically cannot be) fired from that folded position. Open the gun to its regular length and make sure it is a minimum of 26".

Folding stocks are measured unfolded because a rifle is intended to be shot from the shoulder and without a stock that's not possible. We have concrete proof that a rifle can be shorter than 26" OAL if it has a folding stock.
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Rifles are not germane to the OP's question about a folding single shot shotgun.
 
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