legal barrel length... 18" check... over all legal length ???

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Magnum Wheel Man

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I'm working on a made in Turkey, CZ, single shot, folding .410 for MRS... who is 5'2"

the stock was cut short to fit her properly, & fitted with a nice decelerator recoil pad, in stock form, it did not fold tight, I removed the fore arm, & the gun barrel folded tight to the stock ( my goal ) so I've been reshaping the fore arm, so that the barrel will fold tight to the stock, with it on... once there, I'll be trimming the barrel to match the stock length ( yep... that will be about 18.5" long )...

... my concern, is with the shortened stock, & the 18.5" barrel, will I be getting close to the over all length requirement???

anyone have that minimum length handy???

Thanks
 
26" from your Federal laws.
Trimming the barrel removes the choke entirely on that expert's gun, if that matters. There are such things as .410 slugs. Not legal in a lot of places for deer though.
MRS would be better off with a 20 gauge Youth semi, if recoil is an issue. CZ makes 'em with adjustable stocks and 5 chokes. Not stupid expensive either.
 
yes... I have a pile of .410 slugs... I did the same trim job on my 12 gauge, but I installed a poly choke on the 12 ga ( to the best of my knowledge they never made an adjustable choke in .410 )... if it's something she actually starts using... it's being designed as a truck gun, as part of her "get home bag" but will be available to shoot skunks on the drive way ( seems we see them most often ambling down the drive way after dark, when we come home ) my 12 ga has a barrel mounted light mount, which which can easily & quickly be slipped on... I hope to do the same for this .410

if she'll start using it, I'll have it threaded for internal choke tubes... I think that's kind of expensive, but it would make that "experts gun" more versatile, & I'd gladly do that, if she'll use it regularly :)

BTW... she can normally outshoot me, & ends up shooting most of the coons around the farm, that the outside doggie trees, as it's dark when I head off to work, all but the longest days of summer... this custom fit & easy carrying lil .410 should be about perfect for her
 
Keep in mind the overall legal length will be measured with the stock folded; not unfolded. Also, state laws usually mirror the fed, but check it.

A for the barrel length, it is measured by closing the bold and dropping a dowel down the barrel.

You may want to post a picture of what your gun looks like with the stock folded. Better yet, with a ruler or yard stick along side it.

I am confused when you talk about the barrel folding tight to the stock. Usually the barrel is attached to the receiver and doesn't fold, but some stocks fold and their folding point is just aft of the receiver.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, but the OP wasn't talking about a folding stock. His shotgun has the ability to fold the barrel completely over and back toward the butt. Not very common, and all I've seen are foreign made. GW
 
the .410 is not a folding stock, but a break action with a hinge that allows it to fold on it's self... in stock form, it's not 26" long ( I don't think... I'll have to check ) so they must not measure folding, break actions the same way they'd measure another type of action... there is no way to fire the gun, when it's folded... with a folding stock, the gun could be fired with the stock folded...

GW... typing faster than me... but he is correct... & BTW... mine is an old H&R... the .410 was made in Turkey & imported through CZ USA

This is a picture of my H&R before I started working on it... it now wears a decelerator recoil pad ( adding 1" to the stock length ) the barrel was cut so that with the Poly Choke silver soldered on, the barrel & the stock are the same length, the light mount was added to the barrel just forward of the fore arm, & a fiber optic front bead added that lights up when the tactical light is added... then the gun was Dura Coated, receiver sliver, & barrel & controls dark blue, for corrosion resistance... should get a new picture of how it looks now, one of these days

attachment.php
 
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Dreaming100Straight said:
Keep in mind the overall legal length will be measured with the stock folded; not unfolded. Also, state laws usually mirror the fed, but check it.
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Unless one is in California or Michigan overall length is measured with the stock extended for use as a rifle/shotgun.

For rifles/shotguns fitted with folding or telescoping stocks (such as U.S. Carbine M1A1), US Federal guidelines state that measurement is made with the stock unfolded as intended for use as a rifle; exception is made for rifles with easily detachable shoulder stocks, which shall be measured with shoulder stock detached. Some states such as California and Michigan measure overall length with the stock folded.
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if she'll start using it, I'll have it threaded for internal choke tubes... I think that's kind of expensive, but it would make that "experts gun" more versatile, & I'd gladly do that, if she'll use it regularly
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Not that bad; contact Mike Orlen in MA (he is on SGW); IIRC threading the barrel is about $55 and then individual chokes.
 
4th Point. I am not saying you are wrong about how a folding stock shotgun's overall length is measured by the Feds, nor am I saying that you are right. How about a source or link for your quote? If it is the pistol letter I have seen, I wouldn't hang my hat on your interpretation.
 
here is a current picture of my H&R... obviously the flashlight would not be on the gun for any hunting situation, only night varmints like skunks in the driveway after dark, & possible "tactical" uses...






and 2 pics of the .410 with it folded as tightly as it could from the factory, & where it is now... ( still needs a little more "wood work" to get it to fold as tightly as the 12 ga does )



 
You have Federal and State laws. In Mass it mirrors Federal law and states; Barrel length 18 inches or more and overall length of 26 inches or more. So if you have an 18 inch barrel but the overall length is less than 26 inches than you have issues also the other way around overall length of 26 inches and barrel less than 18 inches, issues.
 
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Keep in mind the overall legal length will be measured with the stock folded; not unfolded.
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It's not how a break open firearm is measured

Measurement method[edit]
Overall length is measured between the extreme ends of the gun, along a centerline which passes through the middle of the barrel. For rifles fitted with folding or telescoping stocks (such as U.S. Carbine M1A1), US Federal guidelines state that measurement is made with the stock unfolded as intended for use as a rifle; exception is made for rifles with easily detachable shoulder stocks, which shall be measured with shoulder stock detached.

Some states such as California and Michigan measure overall length with the stock folded.

Barrel length is measured from the end of the muzzle to the front of the breechface, typically by inserting a measuring rod into the barrel. Barrel length may partially comprise a permanently attached muzzle accessory (such as a compensator or flash suppressor).[1]
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Sourde? That is all over the net but I haven't seen any sort of precedent that would stop a prosecution if it were shown that the firearm was intended to be fired with the stock folded or unfolded.
 
Sourde? That is all over the net but I haven't seen any sort of precedent that would stop a prosecution if it were shown that the firearm was intended to be fired with the stock folded or unfolded.
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You keep talking about "folding stocks" while that has nothing to do with a break action firearm, which is incapable of firing in the open position.

Only two states measure overall length with stocks folded

The ATF does it with the stock unfolded, and in the case of "collapsible" stocks, they are done at the shortest length

http://www.swggun.org/swg/attachmen... Measurements for Firearms 092613 adopted.pdf

1. ATF National Firearms Act Handbook. U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Office of Enforcement Programs and Services [Internet]:

ATFE-Publication 5320.8 [Revised April 2009]. Chapter 2.

Available from: https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf-p-
5320-8.pdf
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Dreaming100Straight said:
4th Point. I am not saying you are wrong about how a folding stock shotgun's overall length is measured by the Feds, nor am I saying that you are right. How about a source or link for your quote? If it is the pistol letter I have seen, I wouldn't hang my hat on your interpretation.
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No worries, :)

Note first that the law doesn't apply to a firearm in a non-shooting condition (i.e. folded so that the firing pin cannot contact the shell①, folded so that the hammer cannot ignite the primer②, or disassembled and taped together in non-firing condition③.)

The original source is Wikipedia.
California's rule is a result of People v. Rooney (1993).
The rifle in the bag was a Chinese-made AK-47 with a removable folding shoulder stock, or shoulder rest. Measured in a straight line from the end of the butt plate to the end of the flash suppressor (i.e., with the stock folded under the rifle) the rifle was 253/4 quarters inches in length. With the folding stock extended for shoulder firing, the rifle measured about 35 inches. According to testimony at the trial, the gun could be fired with the stock folded. It would, however, be dangerous to the user to fire the weapon using a telescopic sight without the stock extended.
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Michigan is somewhat more complicated as they don't just come right out and say it, but I can refer you to this thread on AR15.Com. Apparently if it's is capable of being fired in a condition of less than 26"OAL then Michigan defines it as 'short barreled'.


① Such as the folded shotgun in question
② KelTec SU-16 B, C, CA, or D, but not A
③ An AR separated into upper and lower assemblies
 
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You keep talking about "folding stocks" while that has nothing to do with a break action firearm, which is incapable of firing in the open position.
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I keep talking about them because people continue to post how they claim the Feds measure shotguns with FOLDING STOCKS. For example:

US Federal guidelines state that measurement is made with the stock unfolded as intended for use as a rifle
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Your "source" wasn't of much help, since BATF page for which you gave a link provides that that page is no longer available.

Back to my point, a break action gun of the type that folds back on itself cannot be fired when folded. The problem is with shotguns that can be fired with a folded stock.

As for the SWGGUN document, I failed to see where it says a word about folding stocks. Please quote and provide a link to a source other than another forum that does no more than repeat what someone thinks is the federal rule. I would love to see if it is a private letter ruling, a published ruling, regulation, or vaporware.
 
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The original source is Wikipedia.
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Thanks, 4th Point.

just like EVERYTHING you hear on the internet is true, how authoritative is Wikipedia, when it SAYS it's a federal guideline, but fails to cite a source. Did someone hear it through the grapevine?
 
Your "source" wasn't of much help, since BATF page for which you gave a link provides that that page is no longer available.
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Now that IS authoritative, just like EVERYTHING you hear on the internet is real. Wikipedia, without citing a source, says it's a federal guideline.
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Maybe you could post your source that says the Feds measure with stocks folded
So far you're the only one saying that

Until then I'll go with what the vast majority, including the ATF, says:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
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http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/fel/fel-newsletter-2010-12.pdf
 
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