Legal Alien from Kanada Not Eligable to Purchase Firearms? What the ^%^&

Mike H...I'm not sure if you are advocating that law abiding non-citizens should be prosecuted for keeping arms or not. If you believe that the right to bear arms is truly a God-given right (as the Founders implied), why do you think people who are in the country legally (but not citizens)should be prosecuted for exercising their inalienable rights? Non-American citizens obey the laws too! The fact that someone is from another country does not mean that the Bill of Rights does not apply to them when they are here legally. If you were to talk to me at the range you probably wouldn't have any idea that I'm a foreigner from Canada. I'm White, I go to church on Sunday, I graduated head of my class from a major University, I pay taxes to the US government, and I speak just like everyone else ( most educated Canadians do not have noticible accents). Am I any less entitled to free speech or the right to bear arms because of the country printed on my birth certificate? It seems that you don't mind gun prohibition for law-abiding individuals so long as it does not apply to you. Well, I also have a wife to protect and I don't think I should be prosecuted for that. This is the problem with gun owners today: the hunters don't give a damn about pistol shooters; bullseye shooters don't care about the banning of semi-autos; handgun owners often care less about the banning of so-called "assult weapons" etc. Do you see the pattern? Too many people are interested only in preserving their right to own the particular type of firearm they fancy shooting. What ever happened to the idea that no lawful man should be debarred the right to keep and bear arms (whether it be a pistol, revolver, rifle, AR-15 or what have you)? I'm sorry to go off like this but its far to easy to sit on a high horse and say that foreign nationals should be prosecuted for purchasing ammunition or bearing arms even though they have not violated any moral code of the community in which they live. I am personally obedient to the laws that govern this Country; but more importantly, I am obedient to those laws which govern my conscience. I assure you that I pose no threat simply because I posess a few firearms and some ammunition...and happen to be of Canadian descent. I am your ally, not your enemy.

[This message has been edited by Piggy (edited December 20, 1999).]
 
I will second Mr. Piggy's views on my old homeland. I just got back from Canada this am. I sure am glad I now reside in the U.S.A.. Of course living in Texas is just icing on the cake. This country is the closest thing to free that I know of. Of course I don't know how every other country is, I have only lived in four of them. Z
 
Piggy,

I personally have no problem with the honest and decent having access to a handgun to protect themselves in the US regardless of nationality, we are after all a nation of immigrants something that is often overlooked by the more racist elements of our society. My previous point was more of a legal one, the legaleeze quoted earlier indicated that selling ammo to a "non-resident legal alien" is illegal, my point being that it's as easy as buying candy, and that law is therefore a nonsense as the ATF now no longer require ID to buy ammo unless it comes under separate state provisions such as New York or Kali. I would be concerned however about the problem of background checks for temporary immigrants, what happens when Mr.Armed Bank Robber (recently released) from Spain decides to kick start his career again during a visit to Disney Land, you see the problem. Firearms purchased by foreign nationals also have a habit of finding their way back to their home countries for illegal purposes, this is a fact that we cannot simply ignore.

As for the US being a "free" society, I'm afraid I have to differ, I too have lived abroad, mostly in Europe. Sure, we have fairly liberal gun laws here, but when you visit somewhere like Sweden or England, you appreciate that the whole freedom thing is much more subtle, and we think we have lots of it simply because we are told that we do by the Government. Unless you count Kanada and Mexico, we have few immediate neighbors to compare ourselves with, and as such, most Americans live in a vacuum.

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Mike H
 
Point well taken Mike H. I suppose what upsets me is that I just don't feel like an immigrant as I look and act just like any other traditional American. You see, Canada and the US are very, very much alike in terms of our cultures and ancestry (my ancestors moved from Europe to America in the 1600's but my great grandfather decided to move to Canada). I grew up just like any American kid watching the same TV shows on NBC, CBS, ABC etc (Gunsmoke was always my favorite)..I listened to country music my whole life, and went to a good church my whole life. I guess I believe that people like me should be exempt from certain immigration requirements because the term "naturalization" is meaningless to people like me who are already naturalized (Americanized). Anyway, I spoke with a few fellas at the range about the gun laws and all agreed that it would be highly unlikely that someone such as myself would be prosecuted for posession of a firearm because I went through all the legal channels to purchase the ones I own (NICS approved). I heard that many migrant farm workers from mexico purchase firearms for hunting with no problems, and that the LEO's here in south texas are well aware of it and couldn't give a damn, as there is very little violent crime here. Anyway, I'm just going to continue shooting at the range until my green card comes. Its funny, the guy who owns the most popular outdoor range here (the one where all the LEO's train) is also a nonimmigrant legal alien from Canada who happens to sell huge ammounts of his reloaded ammo at gun shows here. Don't bet on him getting prosecuted either :) Thanks for your input and I think I'm gonna let this thread die now that my question has been well answered.

[This message has been edited by Piggy (edited December 25, 1999).]
 
The US immigration laws concerning nonimmigrant visitors are NOT more lax with reference to Canada. True, no passport or visa is normally required for Canadian visitors for business or pleasure, but that does NOT mean that visiting Canadians can stay indefinitely. The duration of stay is established--however informally--at the time of admission. There is something of a 'gentleman's agreement' at that time that you will come, do what you said you will do, not accept unauthorized employment, comply with the law, and depart when you said you would. This should have been established by the inspecting Immigration or Customs officer. On rare occasions a document will be issued to track you and establish exactly what the period and class of admission was. Failure to comply can get you arrested and deported. Admission as a B-1 or B-2 visitor (business or pleasure) is normally for a period not to exceed 180 days. Extensions are possible.

As to the initial question, both immigrant (green card) aliens and nonimmigrant (short term 'visitor') aliens are eligible to purchase firearms if they are legally in the US. Most states recognized this some time back, although there may be some that still have this prohibition on the books. If so, it would not withstand a court challenge today.

Also, someone referred to the complexity of immigration laws and the desirability of contacting an attorney specializing in immigration matters. I am out of the field for some five years now but I can only underscore this. You shouldn't take tax advice from the man on the street; that applies even more to immigration law. 'Doing it yourself' can be very, very expensive and counterproductive. When in doubt get straight answers from someone who really knows their stuff. (Been there, did it for 22 years.)

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I respectfully disagree with some points made in the previous post. INS is, in practice, much more lax when it comes to Canadians immigrating to the US in comparison to other foreign nationals. My wife and I are both in the medical profession and we should have our green cards within 12-18 months. We work with several other former Canadians who received their green cards in even less time. On the other hand, I personally know three individuals from the Phillipines that have been waiting 5+ years for their green cards (they also had a horrendous amount of paper work to fill out whereas I did not). So while the laws, in theory, are said to be non-discriminatory, in practice, there seems to be a great advantage to being Canadian (just as one example...I never had to get the series of expensive vaccinations my Phillipino counterparts did because Canadians receive all the same vaccinations in school as American children do). This reality has become increasingly evident as NAFTA has been phased in so that a free flow of labour can be maintained. In addition, I have family that live in Florida and they do not even own Canadian passports. They stay indefinitely and I'm sure that the US govt. doesn't mind people like this because they are spending their retirement savings right here in the good ol' USA...not Canada. Perhaps I should have stated that the TREATMENT of Canadians is much more lax rather than the immigration LAWS per se. But as I mentioned, the reality is that it is quite a simple task for an educated Canadian to become a permanet resident in the US. This cannot be said for people of any other country. In summary, I agree that in theory, INS is forbidden to descriminate based on national origin; however, it is a common experience for Canadins to have a relatively easy time becoming Americans. By the same token, it is also extremely simple for Americans to become Canadian citizens. It seems that the two countries have a certain undestanding that our people, culture, and values share a remarkable congruancy, and therefore allow for a relatively free exchange of our populations.

[This message has been edited by Piggy (edited December 26, 1999).]
 
Become an American citizen and cut the crap
if you intend to work here for a long time.

I once had a job interview in Canada and
was stupid enough to say that at the border
crossing when going into Ontario. Damn,
I was delayed for hours until a supervisor
came over and shut up some raving Canadian
zealot.

As far as the dude at the Texas gun show -
are you a mind reader - you don't know
jack squat about this guy? Plenty of dudes
skip on their alimony and child support and
screw their kids so they can be with their
new sweetie. There are similar stops on other
kinds of licenses also for nonpayment of
alimony and child support.

I know you are annoyed but have a reality
check.
 
Guys,

To raise my previous question from the dead. So we ARE saying that there is a Federal law permitting folks here on vacation to buy handguns for whatever purpose, does this superceed any state laws and exactly how would such a person complete the necessary paperwork required for such a purchase. I'm talking about someone here for a 2 week touring or stopover vacation not someone living here as a student or whatever for an extended period. Surely you need some kind of state address other than a hotel.

Staighten me out I'm plenty confused.

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Mike H
 
Once more. Any legally admitted alien (the burden being on the alien to prove legal admission), able to answer the questions on the 4473 form satisfactorily, is eligible under federal law to purchase a firearm. State laws may impose different or additional conditions, but citizenship status in and of itself ought not to be a factor. If it becomes one, the state statutes are out of synch and could not withstand a challenge. I was an INS agent until 5 yrs ago and would occasionally get calls on that issue. Most states figured it out quite a while ago and the statutes do not discriminate. As to Part II of this discussion, there is no, repeat, no 'special relationship' with Canada as regards immigration law, either way. There are 'special preference visa categories' for various occupations for which a shortage of US citizens allegedly exists. Those are dealt out equitably within that category. Immigration law is extremely complex and applied appropriately to each individual within a category. Generalizations are risky and often irresponsible--just like medical practice. A hundred cases will have a hundred different answers. Every once in a while I used to help someone out because they really needed a hand--or just to spite a know-it-all attorney who was ripping off his client or screwing up the case. I must have known what I was talking about...

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If there is no 'special relationship' between Canada and USA, why are Canadians allowed the privelage of maintaining dual citizenship? My understanding is that any other immigrant is required to renounce their previous citizenship to become soley American. I must tell you that much has changed since NAFTA began being implemented. I have been told by several INS officials that there is no special treatment of Canadians; however, several have told me different. It seems every different agent I talk to gives a different answer when posed the same question. I realized soon after I moved to the US that the sole objective of INS is to keep as many people out of the country as possible. For myself, this has often meant being dealt erroneous information by INS agents. I have an extensive list of examples, but this is simply not the place for it.
Finally, TN visas are not dealt out in equal fashion between Mexico and Canada. A Canadian is not required to make a request from the US consulate to obtain a visa (as Mexicans are). Canadians simply enter the US AT ANY PORT OF ENTRY, and receive an arrival departure record after presenting some very basic documentation. Oh, one more thing. My wife is a nurse who has applied for her green card. We were told by the individual responsible for immigration law at her agency that two pools of green cards exist for nurses: A Canadian Pool and a non-Canadian pool....If that is not preferential treatment then tell me what is.

[This message has been edited by Piggy (edited December 27, 1999).]
 
One thing I found on the BATF website was a letter addressed to all FFL holders not to sell firearms to non-immigrant visa holders.
Except for that, the website actually makes it clear that it is perfectly legal if one is in the country legally. I have no idea why there would be contradicting themselves.
Saying its legal, but telling the FFL holders not to sell guns to foreigners, is that not discrimination?
anand
 
This has all been very interesting. I've often wondered about this subject since in my little fishing town we get a lot of Mexican and Central American workers coming up and they invariably buy a hunting rifle and a large revolver and are busily trying to figure them out down at the range I go to. This is Alaska - you have to get a big gun, its a rule isn't it?
You see some pretty scary gun handling among some of these guys because they are just really unfamiliar with firearms - a different subject.
I always thought they were buying the guns through friends who had citizenship status, after all, nobody here is going to bother them about owning a firearm unless they shoot somebody.
Good to see that there is at least some common sense and fairness in the system for non-citizens.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Piggy, I'm afraid that your knowledge of INS law is a little off. Nobody is forced to renounce their citizenship upon becoming a US citizen. That decision is made either by the individual or the country that the person is emmigrating from. Some countries force its citizens to renounce citizenship to that particular country upon being granted citizenship in another country. True, TN's do not need to obtain a visa to enter for working purposes, but it is still necessary to complete paperwork (application, I-94, etc). Canadians cannot enter at ANY port of entry, one must go to an INS class "A" port to obtain an I-94. As for Green cards there is no Canadian pool, there is however a separate pool for professionals. And finally, the reason that your friends from the Phillipines applications take so long is because of the sheer number of applications by Philipinos. It's the same case with many other countries, Dom. Rep. for example. There is also a green card lottery held annually that you might want to look into.
 
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