Leaving magazines loaded, weaken spring tension???
- Thread starter darko
- Start date
I have have a couple "mag loaders", which are generally hard to load when new, but they get easier the more they are used. Never a problem with extended loaded gun mags. But I do rotate mags if they have been left loaded (and not used) for a year. But that is just a personal choice. Why temp fate?
Walt Sherrill
New member
T. O'Heir said:
While the original post was from 10 years ago, JohnKSa posted an update and links just a day or two ago. He mentioned newer test results and more recent information including links to YouTube. Just because some information is OLD doesn't make it wrong...
Can you offer any test data, technical references, or other evidence to tell us that "Springs do not lose temper from being compressed."
How do you explain away JohnKSa's test results (which include tests that are ongoing), or the contents of the YouTube links he provided above -- one of which describes mags that no longer hold the slide open?
Must they all be wrong while your assertion -- which is offered without evidence -- is right?
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Springs take a "set" after they are heat treated. The further they are compressed, the greater this "set" is. Once the "set" is in, they usually don't shorten or lose power. If they are compressed to the point of their elastic limit, they deform further, and damage is done.
I'm speaking in practical terms, not lab results.
We all have seen very old springs that work just fine. Even revolver springs are under some tension at rest, and they don't seem to get weaker, do they?
I have M1 carbine mags that have been loaded for 30 years, pistol mags that have been loaded for 40 years. Keltec and S&W hi cap mags that have been loaded for 20 years. They all work just fine. I have had one S&W mag spring fail, and it failed completely-improperly made.
My take is that any springs that get weak are the exception to the rule, and are either improperly made, or not used as designed. And if your gun being fully loaded causes magazines to fail, I would say the design is faulty. Rohrbaugh be damned.
And again, I make springs for antique switchblade knives. I have made thousands of them. None have ever gotten weaker, and they are under much greater stress than almost any gun spring.
I'm speaking in practical terms, not lab results.
We all have seen very old springs that work just fine. Even revolver springs are under some tension at rest, and they don't seem to get weaker, do they?
I have M1 carbine mags that have been loaded for 30 years, pistol mags that have been loaded for 40 years. Keltec and S&W hi cap mags that have been loaded for 20 years. They all work just fine. I have had one S&W mag spring fail, and it failed completely-improperly made.
My take is that any springs that get weak are the exception to the rule, and are either improperly made, or not used as designed. And if your gun being fully loaded causes magazines to fail, I would say the design is faulty. Rohrbaugh be damned.
And again, I make springs for antique switchblade knives. I have made thousands of them. None have ever gotten weaker, and they are under much greater stress than almost any gun spring.
Sure. And I've seen some old ones that don't work any more--and even some new ones.
I've never seen anyone measure their strength to see how they do over time, but I wouldn't expect to see much weakening since being under "some tension" seems to be significantly different than being under maximum tension based on my test results.
In all fairness, you have no idea at all if any of them "have ever gotten weaker". At best, you know that none of them has ever failed to function.
I've heard this before, but it is not consistent with the results of my testing, nor with the results from the two videos I posted.
All of those magazine springs were compressed the same amount (fully loaded) but the ones left loaded for long periods definitely shortened a lot more than the ones that were only loaded for range use (cycled). Clearly there is more to it than just taking a set and then never shortening further after that. If that were the case, all of the mags would have springs the same length since they were all compressed to the same level at least once and therefore should have taken the same set if your assertion was correct.
For the record, I'm not saying that all magazine springs are going to fail if left loaded. So far my testing suggests that would be the exception rather than the rule. I do think that people should be aware that magazine springs can weaken when left loaded and that in some cases can weaken enough to cause function issues.
I don't recommend replacing magazine springs on a regular basis as a preventive measure unless previous issues have been noted, but I would recommend that people who do leave magazines loaded for long periods should check them for function periodically.
An inappropriate word for the subject being posted about. In regard to "heat treating" (the broad term), there is a three-step process...hardening (heating and then quenching), drawing (A.K.A, "tempering", by re-heating the item to a lower temperature) and then quenching again.
The subject of the post is whether or not a magazine spring will take a set over time. The only way a spring will lose its "temper" is with the application of heat...nothing to do with taking a set.
Walt Sherrill
New member
dahermit said:
The subject wasn't whether springs would lose "temper" or take a set, but whether springs can degrade with use and eventually lose their ability to function as intended. New coil springs will always take a set when first put to work -- you can see this with both recoil springs and magazine springs. That's normal spring behavior, and it's understood and taken into consideration by the folks who specify the springs used in a given gun design.
We've had this discussion here on The Firing Line a number of times, and folks who haven't taken part in those earlier discussions (and a few others, like Bill DeShivs, ) continue to claim that only inferior springs fail; they also seem to believe that all springs are designed with the same objectives and are all intended to have long functional lives -- regardless of how the spring or the gun is intended to be used.
Engineers involved in this discussion in the past -- at least one of whom was a metallurgist -- tell us that while steel is surprisingly resilient (and flexible), it will degrade if it's pushed, stretched, or bent too far.
These experts also reminded us that this behavior is seen in almost all materials -- wood, steel, aluminum, glass, rubber, nylon, etc. That's why buildings fail, bridges fall, airplane wings break off, ropes fail, rubber bands break, and mirrors or windows crack. (Aluminum, for example, doesn't bend well -- it typically breaks very easily -- and that's why there are few aluminum springs.)
In the case of recoil and magazine springs -- both types of coil springs -- the degradation takes the form of small fractures in the metal where it flexes. As the work continues and more metal fractures, the remaining (sound) steel is forced to take over the work being done and the failures cascade. I don't think the degraded metal has lost it's "temper" -- it has just been broken by "over"-use (i.e., lost its structural integrity.) These springs get soft because some of the metal in the spring is no longer resisting when pushed or stretched. This sort of degradation doesn't happen UNTIL the spring is pushed to or beyond it's design limits (also called its elastic limit).
Some designs (like 7-round 1911 mags) never push springs that far. Some very small guns, like the Rohrbaugh R9 recoil spring mentioned earlier, do. But many gun owners want extra capacity or a smaller gun size and don't mind having to replace springs more frequently.
When used as intended, many (perhaps most) springs may never degrade enough to cause a malfunction. But when degradation does happen the gun will start to "act up": a recoil spring that doesn't store enough force to close the slide, a magazine spring that may not lock the slide back, or when rounds in the mag nose dive and not freed properly.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
John- Exactly-your springs were held at maximum tension, at or above their elastic limit.
And yes, I would know if any of my springs has degraded. The auto knife collector community is a relatively small one and I am in contact with many of my customers.
I also think that most of us are actually in agreement, but that our understandings of terminology make it look like we aren't. That- and Walt just likes to argue with me.
And yes, I would know if any of my springs has degraded. The auto knife collector community is a relatively small one and I am in contact with many of my customers.
I also think that most of us are actually in agreement, but that our understandings of terminology make it look like we aren't. That- and Walt just likes to argue with me.
IMHO, that was a pre-Internet argument against semiautomatic pistols back when almost everyone used revolvers and wanted an argument to keep using revolvers.
Nowadays, as we can see in this thread, people are actually doing experiments, quoting metallurgists, contacting spring manufacturers, etc. Some of us older folk probably have "information" from old-timey gun periodical writers stuck in our heads.
I know I do. I still unload magazines whenever they're not in use, and still have an irrational affection for such SD weapons as revolvers and coach guns with external hammers.
Nowadays, as we can see in this thread, people are actually doing experiments, quoting metallurgists, contacting spring manufacturers, etc. Some of us older folk probably have "information" from old-timey gun periodical writers stuck in our heads.
I know I do. I still unload magazines whenever they're not in use, and still have an irrational affection for such SD weapons as revolvers and coach guns with external hammers.
I understand that you would know if they failed to function. That is quite different from being able to prove that none of them have weakened. As I mentioned in an earlier post, all of the magazine springs that I left fully compressed for long periods (by leaving the mags fully loaded) weakened, but so far none of them have weakened enough to affect function.
I have a hard time believing that all of your customers actually quantified the strength of the spring when it was new and then did similar measurements later to verify no strength was lost. In fact, I would have a hard time believing that even one of them did so. That said, if you have the numbers, I would be very interested to see them.
We're probably pretty close in terms of practical recommendations, but as long as anyone is going to say that springs don't weaken from being left compressed, that's going to be a problem in terms of full agreement. I can easily do (and have done) the measurements to prove that statement isn't true.
Bill DeShivs
New member
John,
Springs may weaken when compressed to their elastic limit, but if not compressed that far, there should be no practical loss. If there were, all of our cars would sit just a little bit lower each day.
As far as my customers-no they don't measure the spring strength, but if the springs were getting noticeably weaker, I'll guarantee they would be bitching at my repair rates!
And, everyone please note: I'm only speaking of high carbon steel springs. Springs made from work-hardened 17PH stainless and other materials are thing I have no knowledge of.
Springs may weaken when compressed to their elastic limit, but if not compressed that far, there should be no practical loss. If there were, all of our cars would sit just a little bit lower each day.
As far as my customers-no they don't measure the spring strength, but if the springs were getting noticeably weaker, I'll guarantee they would be bitching at my repair rates!
And, everyone please note: I'm only speaking of high carbon steel springs. Springs made from work-hardened 17PH stainless and other materials are thing I have no knowledge of.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Bill DeShivs said:
I don't think anyone has ever claimed otherwise. SOME designs do that routinely to make a gun perform as needed. This is true with some hi-cap mags, and some recoil springs in small guns.
On other forums where I participate, some of the shooters use suppressed or silenced handguns. When first using the new barrels or attachments, they find that the gun won't cycle properly -- because the recoil springs are too stout and won't let the gun cycle with the reduced recoil that comes from a suppressed or silenced barrel. For some of these guns (FNX 45s) there are no lighter recoil springs available. What do they do? They leave the gun stored with the slide locked back for a week or two. The recoil spring eventually degrades (weakens) just enough to allow the gun to cycle properly.
In some cases, over-stressing a spring is done by DESIGN -- it's intentional. It's something that many gun buyers know and accept -- doing so gives them (in a few cases) a gun that holds more rounds or functions properly despite a very small size. They just have to change out springs more frequently.
Springs lose their ability to function from more than just cycling -- and leaving a spring compressed to its elastic limit (or beyond) will degrade the spring's material/internal structure. Happily, most spring applications don't do that and when it happens, it mostly happens by design. There are also inferior springs -- poorly designed or made with inferior materials. Some of us have had experience with a brand or two of after-market mags that are made with inferior materials...
Cycling a well-made spring generally won't cause enough wear or degrade enough to make the spring non-functional UNLESS cycling compresses or stretches the spring to or beyond it's elastic limit. For most applications, the SPRING CYCLE never pushes a coil spring that far. That's why valve springs in autos almost never fail -- despite many-million of cycles during the engine's working life. Those valve springs are designed and installed so that they CAN'T be pushed beyond their elastic limits. Long life is important for that spring use/application, and there's no reason to build and install them any other way.
In magazine springs, there will be some loss of function due to long-term cycling, but the magazine will typically still work. (This is what JohnKSa's tests -- which continue -- show us. Those springs may never wear enough that they won't continue to function.
To claim that ONLY CYCLING will degrade a spring is both silly and uninformed -- The springs in JohnKSa's tests aren't being cycled! What, then, is causing the springs to degrade?
,
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This is an often-argued subject.
I know (KNOW) it at least used to cause spring weakening in Glock mags several years ago.
Our department armorer would replace shortened mag springs when he found 'em during annual inspections.
He showed me the difference in mine vs new ones when he replaced two on my last inspection.
And I can assure you that those springs did not shorten because of repeated compression.
I didn't shoot my issued Glock unless I had to at qualifiers.
Neither did most of the other guys.
The only failure I ever had in that 17 was a mag-induced failure to feed, and that involved a round jamming inside a mag that had sat fully loaded for a year or three.
Toward the end of my career with that Glock, I defied department policy & carried my mags loaded one less.
I'd heard scuttlebutt about the springs.
Took no chances.
I don't know if Glock springs still do this today, but they definitely did then.
Denis
I know (KNOW) it at least used to cause spring weakening in Glock mags several years ago.
Our department armorer would replace shortened mag springs when he found 'em during annual inspections.
He showed me the difference in mine vs new ones when he replaced two on my last inspection.
And I can assure you that those springs did not shorten because of repeated compression.
I didn't shoot my issued Glock unless I had to at qualifiers.
Neither did most of the other guys.
The only failure I ever had in that 17 was a mag-induced failure to feed, and that involved a round jamming inside a mag that had sat fully loaded for a year or three.
Toward the end of my career with that Glock, I defied department policy & carried my mags loaded one less.
I'd heard scuttlebutt about the springs.
Took no chances.
I don't know if Glock springs still do this today, but they definitely did then.
Denis
Cheapshooter
New member
This zombie thread from ten and a half years ago pops up again. I'll bet if the OP loaded a couple mags the day they made the first post they would work perfectly today.
