lead/coating buildup problems, 9mm

If the leading isn't starting until a couple of inches into the barrel, that could be due to a couple of things. One is having a tapered bore (usually considered a good thing for lead bullet accuracy), and the other is just that the coating is staying on the bullet until it gets a couple of inches down the tube.

Several suggestions come to mind. First, whatever else you do afterward, I would start by getting the bore truly clean. I would get some No-Lead and apply it per the instructions. For me, it does a great job. On Midway, the reviews are mixed. Good reviews (mine, for one) and bad reviews. Among the latter are people who clearly ignored the instructions. Don't do that. A few seem to indicate the maker has had production QC issues from time to time. But what I have works very well, indeed.

Try dipping the bullets into Lee Liquid Alox (LLA) lube and letting it dry before loading to see if that mitigates the problem. You can thin the LLA in mineral spirits before applying it to get a thinner coat onto the bullet's powder coat. If the problem is stripping the coating off, that extra lube may prevent it.

Another way to prevent injury to the bullet coating is to lube the bore. Put a little 2-cycle motor oil on a patch and push it through the bore and follow that with one dry patch, so the oil is thin. This oil is designed to withstand combustion heat, so it tends to hold up for at least a few rounds. By then, the follow-up LLA on the bullets starts taking over for it. The overall idea is to prevent the leading from starting, as subsequent lead generally sticks to the initial layer.

Since your bore is already half a mil over nominal groove diameter, one cure, firelapping, may be unattractive as it removes another fraction of a thousandth. You can, however, do just a polishing version of it that won't measurably affect groove diameter. Shoot a very light load of two or three grains of 231 using cast bullets rolled against 600-grit lapping compound on a steel or glass surface to embed it in the lead. Follow that with bullets who've had the lube replaced by JB Bore Compound to polish it up. About 20 of each will smooth and polish the surface without removing any readily measurable amount of metal. Note, though, that you will want to push a patch through every five rounds or so and look for leading. If you find it, you need to clean it out again, as there is little point in firing the polishing rounds if the places most in need of polishing are covered with lead. That will keep the polish from getting at those places.

When you have that done, you can clean the barrel very carefully and treat it with a permanent lube. There are several on the market. Sprinco Plate+ silver is an expensive but effective one. You apply it to a clean barrel and let it sit for 72 hours to bond to the steel. It lasts 1000 rounds or so.


CAUTION!

I have to recommend against firing jacketed bullets to "clean" a bore. I did some experiments with that back in the '80s in a 357 Magnum which proved to my satisfaction that it doesn't really work. It raises pressure enough that Smith & Wesson and Beretta specifically recommend against it. I believe it was Allan Jones who mentioned having seen a couple of guns burst by doing it. It's one of those folk-wisdom remedies that isn't endorsed by anyone who can actually measure pressure. It is akin to shooting a jacketed bullet into a bore coated in super-viscous grease. Most guns are strong enough to withstand a good degree of abuse, so it isn't often that the practice results in gun or shooter damage, and that anecdotal evidence and the speed with which it is completed makes the idea seductive.

When I experimented with it, I found the nice shiny clean-looking bores that appeared to result from the practice really weren't clean. If you have one of the old Outer's Foul Out machines, you will find a lot of lead still comes out onto the rod after shooting the jacketed rounds and getting the bore "clean" by the usual methods. I found that after normal cleaning, I had what appeared to be a very smooth and clean bore that looked very shiny held up to a light, but when I ran a dry brush through it, large areas of the bore became dull due to the brush roughening the surface of the ironed-in lead. Since new lead sticks to old lead, such a barrel is actually primed to lead-up faster than it otherwise would.
 
I have to recommend against firing jacketed bullets to "clean" a bore. I did some experiments with that back in the '80s in a 357 Magnum which proved to my satisfaction that it doesn't really work. It raises pressure enough that Smith & Wesson and Beretta specifically recommend against it. I believe it was Allan Jones who mentioned having seen a couple of guns burst by doing it. It's one of those folk-wisdom remedies that isn't endorsed by anyone who can actually measure pressure. It is akin to shooting a jacketed bullet into a bore coated in super-viscous grease. Most guns are strong enough to withstand a good degree of abuse, so it isn't often that the practice results in gun or shooter damage, and that anecdotal evidence and the speed with which it is completed makes the idea seductive.

interesting, the guy who recommended it to us was a top ten national shooter who swore by it but I will stop doing it now and delete my first post.

Thanks for the info
 
Yeah, lots of folks still do it, but they aren't measuring pressure, AFAIK. The author of post #5 here seems to have found the same thing I did with the lead just being burnished into the bore surface by the bullet. It makes some sense when you consider the bullet bearing surface usually is radiused at the shoulder with the ogive. It's analogous to the nose of a ski or a sled runner in profile, so it makes sense it would try to go over top of the lead rather than scrape it out. I have wondered if a sharpened edge might be more successful. Maybe turn one on the base of a bullet and shoot it backward or hot-melt glue a gas check onto it to shoot out mouth-first. But I haven't done the experiment. I would, for sure, be using a very low pressure load to do it, and not shoot commercial magnum loads as I once did back in the '80s.
 
If the leading isn't starting until a couple of inches into the barrel, that could be due to a couple of things. One is having a tapered bore (usually considered a good thing for lead bullet accuracy), and the other is just that the coating is staying on the bullet until it gets a couple of inches down the tube.

Several suggestions come to mind. First, whatever else you do afterward, I would start by getting the bore truly clean. I would get some No-Lead and apply it per the instructions. For me, it does a great job. On Midway, the reviews are mixed. Good reviews (mine, for one) and bad reviews. Among the latter are people who clearly ignored the instructions. Don't do that. A few seem to indicate the maker has had production QC issues from time to time. But what I have works very well, indeed.

Try dipping the bullets into Lee Liquid Alox (LLA) lube and letting it dry before loading to see if that mitigates the problem. You can thin the LLA in mineral spirits before applying it to get a thinner coat onto the bullet's powder coat. If the problem is stripping the coating off, that extra lube may prevent it.

Another way to prevent injury to the bullet coating is to lube the bore. Put a little 2-cycle motor oil on a patch and push it through the bore and follow that with one dry patch, so the oil is thin. This oil is designed to withstand combustion heat, so it tends to hold up for at least a few rounds. By then, the follow-up LLA on the bullets starts taking over for it. The overall idea is to prevent the leading from starting, as subsequent lead generally sticks to the initial layer.

Since your bore is already half a mil over nominal groove diameter, one cure, firelapping, may be unattractive as it removes another fraction of a thousandth. You can, however, do just a polishing version of it that won't measurably affect groove diameter. Shoot a very light load of two or three grains of 231 using cast bullets rolled against 600-grit lapping compound on a steel or glass surface to embed it in the lead. Follow that with bullets who've had the lube replaced by JB Bore Compound to polish it up. About 20 of each will smooth and polish the surface without removing any readily measurable amount of metal. Note, though, that you will want to push a patch through every five rounds or so and look for leading. If you find it, you need to clean it out again, as there is little point in firing the polishing rounds if the places most in need of polishing are covered with lead. That will keep the polish from getting at those places.

When you have that done, you can clean the barrel very carefully and treat it with a permanent lube. There are several on the market. Sprinco Plate+ silver is an expensive but effective one. You apply it to a clean barrel and let it sit for 72 hours to bond to the steel. It lasts 1000 rounds or so.


CAUTION!

I have to recommend against firing jacketed bullets to "clean" a bore. I did some experiments with that back in the '80s in a 357 Magnum which proved to my satisfaction that it doesn't really work. It raises pressure enough that Smith & Wesson and Beretta specifically recommend against it. I believe it was Allan Jones who mentioned having seen a couple of guns burst by doing it. It's one of those folk-wisdom remedies that isn't endorsed by anyone who can actually measure pressure. It is akin to shooting a jacketed bullet into a bore coated in super-viscous grease. Most guns are strong enough to withstand a good degree of abuse, so it isn't often that the practice results in gun or shooter damage, and that anecdotal evidence and the speed with which it is completed makes the idea seductive.

When I experimented with it, I found the nice shiny clean-looking bores that appeared to result from the practice really weren't clean. If you have one of the old Outer's Foul Out machines, you will find a lot of lead still comes out onto the rod after shooting the jacketed rounds and getting the bore "clean" by the usual methods. I found that after normal cleaning, I had what appeared to be a very smooth and clean bore that looked very shiny held up to a light, but when I ran a dry brush through it, large areas of the bore became dull due to the brush roughening the surface of the ironed-in lead. Since new lead sticks to old lead, such a barrel is actually primed to lead-up faster than it otherwise would.
thanks Uncle Nick. I can still see a touch of lead in the barrel, just a couple stubborn specs that don't want to let go. I tried everything I know how and they just did not want to come out. I will try to sharps no-lead.

I had actually thought of trying the alox, seems silly to lube a coated bullet, and I was not sure how it would stick to the coating, but its worth a try, I agree.

I will be conditioning the bore with some FMJ and oil before I get going. I was trying some new oils recently, but will be switching back to my old stand by Weapon Shield CLP. It is the only cleaner, of the MANY I have tried, that seems to actually condition the bore/metal and make cleaning easier.

I will not be doing fire lapping. I tried that with a rifle with a rough bore, I was not happy with the results. Valid idea, but I wont be going down that road again.

I have never heard of permanent lube, but the Idea intrigues me, especially for rifles. Handgun barrels are cheaper and easier to replace.... Read through most of the literature for the Sprinco Plate+ silver. Did not see anything beyond them stating a velocity increase for the first 5-80rnds. Expensive it accurate. But if you could significantly increase barrel life, it would pay for itself.

clear, no jacketed after lead.
 
Lead and copper have nothing in common.

Equally, Bore Tech Eliminator will get rid of copper and you don't have that issue with the highly shaky evidence that bullets being used to lap a barrel.

I shoot a hell of a lot of jacketed bullets and what barrels did any copper, easily removed as part of cleaning without the magical part kicking in.

Lead plate out is either a failure of the coating (which looks to be exactly what happened here) and a poor formula that expected the coating to make up for poor quality.

I shot a fair amount of lead back in the day, no issues with lube done right and velocity kept down to reason. Shawdo9mm is well withing reason.

As noted, only time I saw anything like it was complete removal of the lead grease.

I had a few streaks but nothing remotely like what has been shown. We used the mesh screen system back then to get any out.

It worked because it did not force lead down into the bore, it scraped it and the mesh left it a place to go.
 
Lead and copper have nothing in common.

Equally, Bore Tech Eliminator will get rid of copper and you don't have that issue with the highly shaky evidence that bullets being used to lap a barrel.

I shoot a hell of a lot of jacketed bullets and what barrels did any copper, easily removed as part of cleaning without the magical part kicking in.

Lead plate out is either a failure of the coating (which looks to be exactly what happened here) and a poor formula that expected the coating to make up for poor quality.

I shot a fair amount of lead back in the day, no issues with lube done right and velocity kept down to reason. Shawdo9mm is well withing reason.

As noted, only time I saw anything like it was complete removal of the lead grease.

I had a few streaks but nothing remotely like what has been shown. We used the mesh screen system back then to get any out.

It worked because it did not force lead down into the bore, it scraped it and the mesh left it a place to go.
The lewis lead removal system. I signed up for a notification from Brownell's, I will be buying one when it comes back in stock. Its a tool I want in my cleaning arsenal.
 
I used the Iosso product for copper fouling before I discovered the Bore Tech products. Like JB Bore Compound, it's a soft abrasive and it works and also polishes metal well. Also, you've reminded me that Slip2000 Carbon Killer claims to dissolve lead as well as carbon. It works great on carbon, but I've never done the lead experiment and will have to give it a try.

Shadow 9mm,

The Sprinco product is a very good lube. I've used it on my Redding dies with moving parts and treated press parts with it and the felt friction goes way down and parts intended to "float" into position for self-alignment float more easily better. Just to be clear, the 5-80 shot interval mentioned is the period over which velocity gradually increases, and it then stays higher.

There are a number of lubes that bond to metal. All of Slip2000's EWL oils bond to the metal some. For that matter, so does the Sprinco Green Plate+, the penetrant/cleaner, which costs much less than the colloidally suspended micronized moly version does, so you could try it, too. Shooter's Solutions used to have a product that made a great permanent barrel coating, but they seem to be gone, at least for now. Could be related to all the COVID shipping and transport problems.

Sorry to hear you had problems with firelapping. I've had good luck with it, but as I suggested, you can polish without changing bore dimensions appreciably (less than a tenth of a thousandth). The LASC site used to have instructions for putting JB compound in a barrel with a bore mop and shooting lead through it until it polished. Apparently, for revolvers with a constriction at the frame, this light surface polishing will allow soft bullets that the firing pressure can bump up to get through the constriction and not suffer gas cutting and not cause leading. Soft bullets will polish better than hard cast because of the bump-up. They just aren't as good for firelapping as they tend to reduce bore surfaces evenly, narrow and wide spot alike.
 
Also, you've reminded me that Slip2000 Carbon Killer claims to dissolve lead as well as carbon

I missed that, I don't shoot lead anymore so was not looking but rare possible nephews might take over my Penn bullets to reload.

I did keep a close eye on the Sig and HK when I shot the Penns and no issue (the synthetic grease smokes a bit but did no fouling)
 
The coating should hold up if done correctly. Did you pull a few and see if the coating was missing on loaded rounds? The Lyman M expander should help prevent problems but it’ll help to know if the coating is failing when being shot or if it’s happening before that.

I’ve never used Hi-Tek however I’ve powder coat many 1,000’s of my cast bullets. I had one 9mm batch that didn’t cure correctly and that is the one time I’ve had problems. I just started shooting 450 Bushmaster and it’s only seen lead bullets of the PC’d or traditional lube varieties and even at 1,700 FPS the barrel is spotless after one patch of CLP.
 
The coating should hold up if done correctly. Did you pull a few and see if the coating was missing on loaded rounds? The Lyman M expander should help prevent problems but it’ll help to know if the coating is failing when being shot or if it’s happening before that.

I’ve never used Hi-Tek however I’ve powder coat many 1,000’s of my cast bullets. I had one 9mm batch that didn’t cure correctly and that is the one time I’ve had problems. I just started shooting 450 Bushmaster and it’s only seen lead bullets of the PC’d or traditional lube varieties and even at 1,700 FPS the barrel is spotless after one patch of CLP.
I'm getting the press running tomorrow if I have time or wed/thurs. I will load a few dummy rounds to pull. Will recheck the coating and bullet diameter before and after to make sure everything is as expected. I am also going to smash a few with a hammer to make sure the coating is not flaking off.
 
So the barrel is spotless. need to wait for some good weather to get to the range.
yes, slip 2000 carbon killer does work on lead, reasonably well with lots of soak time.
no, bore tech eliminator did not work on lead, as far as I could tell, even after scrubbing, per the directions, and soaking.
No lead is on order, should be here in a few days, hopefully I wont need it, but I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. or have to do that much scrubbing again.

to get the barrel clean
slip 2k, patch, copper brush patch copper brush
soak 1hr
patch copper brush, patch copper brush
soak 1hr
bore tech, followed instructions
soak 1hr
slip 2k, patch, copper brush
soak 1hr
dry patch left overnight
come morning, still a couple specs of lead
lead remover cloth used as patches, about 4
soak 6hrs, slip 2k
still some lead spots
more lead remover cloth patches
looking clean
JB bore cleaner, per the instructions
JB bore bright polish, per the instructions
barrel is bright and shiny, looking like new, nothing I can see. will take the bore scope to it tomorrow to confirm.

On a side note, while I enjoy cleaning my guns, this was a bit much, and much more aggressive than I generally prefer, no recommending it, just what I was able to do with what I had available to me.
 
The only time I have had problems with coated bullets was when using titegroup and magnum primmers. The SMP work fine with slower powder like universal or unique although I did drop loads .2 grain.
 
When trying to remove lead I’ve found it helps to wait like you did. I usually run a patch or 2, then chore boy, and then let CLP sit for a few hours or a day and repeat.
 
A mix of 50/50 white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide will dissolve the lead. Be sure to rinse the barrel out with baking soda water mix as the 50/50 mix is caustic.
 
Sorry didn't mean to steer the thread in different direction. Did anyone try pb blocker? It is advertised as a treatment on barrel to reduce leading. Friend recommended it. Reviews on other forum sounded mixed.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Sorry didn't mean to steer the thread in different direction. Did anyone try pb blocker? It is advertised as a treatment on barrel to reduce leading. Friend recommended it. Reviews on other forum sounded mixed.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
sounds interesting. Anyone else try this product?
 
You can go with magic elixirs or you can do best practices.

That kind of leading is a total failure of the bullet coating system. Nothing is going to change that. Root cause is open but I don't believe its anything other than the coating system on the bullet. Powder, primers and speed might have some affect but not to that amount.

My take was to take the Pistol down at the range after a few rounds and check, both the Sig and the HK.

I upped the count and repeated.

When I was younger we mixed our own lead and cast bullets out of it and shot them in magnum 357 and 44. No gas check and no leading at all (no memory what we did for coating tough it would have been grease of some kind).

If 3 of us just using the recipees and approach could do that, an mfg that can't has gone over the edge completely with no quality control.

They need to shoot each batch of their own bullets.
 
My suspicion is that Reddog81 is on to it. If you watch the Eastwood videos on powder coating, the stuff has to sit for half an hour at its curing temperature. If these bullets were pulled out too early, that could well mean poor bonding.

I have some PB Blocker, but I haven't tried it yet. I didn't mention it because of the late 2010 thread about it on the Castboolits site. It makes me want to try the flat plate drag test to see if the problem has been fixed or not.
 
UPDATE, I think I found the problem! Bad bullets! Will be contacting Brazos! This is not acceptable

I have bought 5 batches. all marked 0.357. The first batch I got I measured several and they were all 0.3570, spot on, and it seemed to shoot fine. The problem started when I got into my second batch.

So I did a couple tests tonight. hit a couple with a hammer. coating stayed in place.

Loaded 5 dummies measured before and after. after loading they were about 0.0005 smaller give or take a little. nothing crazy. I need to adjust my crimp setup a touch. While measuring the before bullet diameter seemed off. 0.356 give or take.

so I grabbed 10 random bullets of of my 4 remaining batches, here are the results. They are definitely out of spec :(

all marked 0.357

#1
.3555
.3555
.3555
.3560
.3560
.3555
.3560
.3560
.3555
.3560

#2
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560

#3
.3560
.3555
.3555
.3560
.3550
.3560
.3555
.3560
.3560
.3560

#4
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3565
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
.3560
 
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