LE knows when you CCW

Common courtesy mandates that the Officer be advised if you are carrying, laws notwithstanding
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Unfortunately, in some parts of the country the response you receive from the officer may not be exactly courteous.

Here in MA, we are not required to notify the officer. I follow the advice that Ayoob gave when I took LFI-1. Unless it is required by law, I do not inform the officer unless he or she asks me to step out of the vehicle. If the officer asks me to step out of the vehicle, I will respond "Certainly, officer. However, I have a license to carry and I am carrying now. How would you like to proceed?"

I know of at least one person here in MA who, after notifying the officer, was proned out at gun point, cuffed, and stuffed, backup called, etc. And yes, they were carrying legally and they were only stopped for speeding. The anti-gun officer overreacted and they were eventually sent on their way after a thoroughly unpleasant traffic stop.
 
Kelly J, I will tell you just what the (LEO!) instructors told me: even handing your carry permit to the officer can be interpreted as a threat. Unless notification is required by law, the LEO isn't expecting it and probably hasn't thought about how to react to it; so you can get anything in response from a nod to being proned out at gunpoint, etc etc. In non-notification states, it's not worth it!

Wild Alaska: "Common courtesy?" Why dat? You plannin' on shootin' the LEO? If not, why is it any more "courteous" to inform him or her than any other person with whom you might have dealings while unobviously armed? Traffic stops of otherwise law-abiding citizens ain't supposed to involve gunplay. That's the way to be courteous!
.....Oh, heck, let's just have it branded or tattoed on our foreheads: EVIL GUNNIE. That should make everyone happier.
 
CDH & DonR,

I'm in Florida, and we are not obligated to tell a police officer that we are carrying a gun if we are pulled over. CDH, you leapt too far in implying that everyone must do so. I know it is the law in Texas, but we're not in Texas here in Florida. :p

I also wonder what the utility of that law in Texas really is. A CCW licensee is not going to be a threat to a police officer; and if he is, he is going to shoot the officer and it won't be after saying, "Officer, I must inform you that I am carrying a firearm." And of course, NON-licensees are not going to voluntarily announce that they have a gun on them. So in the end, the only people who are going to be telling police they have guns are the ones who were not going to be a threat to the officers. :rolleyes: Stupid, accomplish-nothing law. Feelgoodism.

Let me ask you:
If a police officer makes a stop and the motorist does not inform the Texas LEO that he has a gun (as the law requires of him if he is carrying a gun), should the police officer just carry on with the "knowledge" that the motorist has no gun, relaxing his guard? :rolleyes: If not, then the requirement for motorists to inform about a gun is useless: it does not allow the cop to "know" there is NOT a gun in the situation just because no admission is made by the motorist.

DonR,
I have been stopped umm, about 5 or 6 times in Florida since I moved here in 1997. I have had a gun on me (licensed in Florida) in every one of those cases; NEVER said anything about the gun; NEVER had the cop ask me about whether I had a gun. The reason? If they asked me, I might be a criminal and might LIE. So my answer is MOOT, to the cop. He has to go through the stop from start to finish assuming that at any moment a gun might be introduced. Either that or put 100% faith in the truthfulness of any random motorist's answer, and that would be just stupid.

I don't know whether Florida's system informs a cop of whether the motorist has a gun (whether in-state permit or out-of-state permit).

For one thing, in order for that info to be useful, it would have to be tied to the vehicle registration, so that when the cop runs the plate, that would be when the flash would come up.

Otherwise, the cop wouldn't get the flash until after he has already approached the car/motorist, and gotten the license and gone back to the patrol car to run the data (usually with his back to the stopped motorist, too!)! :rolleyes: But wouldn't the knowledge of a gun present be most important on the first approach to the vehicle?

Whether the cop knows I have a CCW license or not, he gets an idea, probably (accurate or not) from the NRA LIFE MEMBER sticker proudly displayed on the driver's side of my car's rear window.

When I am stopped, I park my car and shut it off, turning on the indoor dome light if it's night time, and I then put my hands on the steering wheel until the cop approaches the car. I don't even roll the window down; and I don't go digging to have my registration and other info ready, since that would mean going into the glove compartment. When the cop arrives, I tell him I'm going to roll down the window. I then wait for him to ask for my info, and I tell him, "I have to get that out of the glove compartment, and my license is in this little bag on the passenger seat." (That's where my gun is, too, in a totally different compartment from the wallet with the license.) He gets to watch me calmly and slowly go into the bag and glove box for the stuff, and I have been polite and courteous to him all the way through that point.

The last time I was stopped (some ridiculous 3 a.m. roll-through the stop sign from Walmart onto the street), the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office deputy THANKED ME at the end of the stop (he gave me a pass on the ticket) for having had my hands on the wheel when he approached! :D (I was amazed!)


-Jeffrey
 
18dai said:
In NC it is tied to your DL, and you are required to disclose to the officer when approached. Regards 18DAI.
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So, as I pointed out, the cop won't actually link to the data until after he has approached the car, obtained the driver's license card, walked it back to his patrol car, and looked up the identity of the driver on the computer.

Doesn't that make the information 100% too late to be useful?!

I mean, the cop is going to approach the car with all due care as if there might be a gun on the way to get the driver's license! So it's obvious he doesn't really need the knowledge that the driver has CWL. Whether the driver has it or not (which will become known later) he's going to proceed and conduct himself (or he should, anyway) as though there is a potential for the motorist to produce a gun to shoot him.


-azurefly
 
Just ask a local cop. They can tell you what pops up when they run your tag and registration. Another source of info is your attorney. Asking here, with all 50 states, and a thousand different jurisdictions represented, gets you no info you can 'take to the bank', and confuses folks.

After you do your own homework, then come back, and post a new thread that gives us specific info on your area. That might be helpful. A fishing expedition like this is not.
 
Wild Alaska: "Common courtesy?" Why dat? You plannin' on shootin' the LEO? If not, why is it any more "courteous" to inform him or her than any other person with whom you might have dealings while unobviously armed? Traffic stops of otherwise law-abiding citizens ain't supposed to involve gunplay. That's the way to be courteous!
.....Oh, heck, let's just have it branded or tattoed on our foreheads: EVIL GUNNIE. That should make everyone happier.
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We arent talking some anti gun politcal thingy, we are talking about the courtesy of letting the officer know that you ARE a law abiding citizen who is lawfully armed, so that he doesnt freak out when he spies your piece.

Every traffic stop is a potential threat to a cop and thats just the way the world works.

I know of at least one person here in MA who, after notifying the officer, was proned out at gun point, cuffed, and stuffed, backup called, etc. And yes, they were carrying legally and they were only stopped for speeding. The anti-gun officer overreacted and they were eventually sent on their way after a thoroughly unpleasant traffic stop.
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Wouldnt happen again after my lawyer got through with them:D

WildheybutsomefolkspreferthehardwayAlaska
 
WildAlaska said:
We arent talking some anti gun politcal thingy, we are talking about the courtesy of letting the officer know that you ARE a law abiding citizen who is lawfully armed, so that he doesnt freak out when he spies your piece.
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...Which might be true if you are carrying openly or happen to be sloppy about concealment. Me, I'm not. And I rate not flashin' my carry piece at folks who aren't offering a threat as being very courteous.

Understand the customs and laws differ in AK; which likely means, among other things, police expect to hear people say "I'm armed" and don't become unusually fretful. That would not be the custom hereabouts.* They simply assume you could very well be armed and proceed according to your behavior.

I was addressing a traffic stop. We're a bunch of bucolic savages here in Indiana, it is true, but you pretty much have to be smoking something illegal, or have a bag of drugs or a screaming, bleeding or bound passenger before the police decide to dig through your possessions and vehicle on a traffic stop. (Unless the crummy DMV computer lash-up spits out a false record for you; this has been a problem here in recent weeks and LEOs have been erring on the side of caution, arresting persons only if corroborating data comes from a different system. We keep tryin' to buy 'em jackboots but they won't wear them).

So how's she gonna "spy my piece?" No probable cause, no visible weapon. If the situation bids to escalate, then it may be wise to advise the LEO in advance of a search. But no reason to do so 'til then.


Every traffic stop is a potential threat to a cop and thats just the way the world works.
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And the stop remains a potential threat after you've 'fessed up your secret, too. Others have addressed the perfect uselessness of notification requirements in re officer safety in previous postings and I direct your attention to them -- though I needn't, as I'm sure you have already read them.

We disagree. In part it appears to be due to differing local behavior norms (customs, etc.). I'm okay with that. The customs of our respective tribes are not the Laws of the Universe.

________________________
* Or, to quote the elder officer working the peacebond table at a local gunshow when his younger colleague noticed my kind-of-obvious carry purse after I told 'em I had no gun, "Concealed is concealed." Tellya true, I rarely bother to carry at the gunshow -- the parking lot is busy, the place is crawling with LEOs inside and out, and plenty of other good citizens are carrying -- but it sure warmed my heart to hear that.
 
I'm totally confident that an l.e.o. is in absolutely no danger if he/she stops me for a traffic or any other violation, whether I'm armed or not. What's the point of introducing superfluous information into a cop's brain during a routine traffic stop? If he/she asked me if I'm armed, I'll tell them. If all we discuss is how fast I was driving, etc., then what business is it of the cop's whether I'm carrying or not?
 
Absolutely, Roberta,

I suppose, out of common courtesy, and to be classy 'n all, at the same time I'd inform the officer about the tire iron under my seat, the tie-downs near the back door, my son's baseball bat which is ever rattling around on the rear floor, the Spyderco in my pocket, the belt around my waist, that old can of WD-40, and every other potentially lethal or dangerous object within reach. Wouldn't want to be discourteous, now.

The officer is not going to see my concealed carry weapon unless he pulls me out of the vehicle and pats me down. If things degenerate to that point, I'll have long ago politely notified him of my status.

No obligation to notify here in Virginia, although once he returns to his vehicle with my license, he will find out I have a permit. In other words, by the time he finds out, the information is useless to him if, in fact, I had meant him any harm in the first place.

If the officer doesn't bring it up, neither am I.
 
If Wildalaska wants to support the idea that it's only common courtesy to tell the cop that we're armed, why won't he respond to my points (which I think are quite valid) that by the time we would be able to offer that information to the cop, it's well past the time when that information would or should be useful to the cop?


The cop should be approaching every car as though there may be deadly danger inside it, should he not?

The thread started by asking if cops are able to get the information that the driver has a concealed carry license.

For one thing, we know pretty confidently that those who do are generally not the type that the cop needs to worry about. And those who don't may very well have guns on them that they shouldn't have, and they may very well intend a lethal threat to the cop. So the data availability about licenses is really a moot issue. It's a big empty subject. No one can explain what practical advantage knowing the car's driver has a CCW license provides to the cop -- especially since, as I said, the cop would have to already have approached the car (the dangerous part) and obtained the driver's license from wherever it might be stashed.

So please, Wildalaska, tell me how it could be that a person legally carrying a gun advising a cop that he is doing so will benefit the cop. That person is obviously NOT the type who is a threat to the cop. And anyone who DOES intend a threat to the cop will a) not volunteer the information, and b) lie if asked.


-azurefly
 
In Texas you are required to present your CHL to the officer. True, if you dont and he doesnt call up your liscense he would never know. Its better to go ahead an show it with your DL instead of taking a chance on getting a suspension. If we expect Law Enforcment personnel to follow the law in dealing with us, citizens should follow the law also or pay the consequences without whining for failing to do so.
 
In Mississippi the police assume you're armed. But that doesn't mean they'll necessarily ask to see your license.

(A quick cheater from the packing.org site)
The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is carrying a concealed pistol or revolver and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
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So please, Wildalaska, tell me how it could be that a person legally carrying a gun advising a cop that he is doing so will benefit the cop.
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Hello officer, just like to let you know I have a firearm in my vehicle/on my person and I have a license to carry. What would you like me to do?

Thanks for letting me know sir

WildbeentheredonethatnevergetsaticketAlaska
 
"Hello, officer, I know that you don't know whether I'm legally carrying or not, and that you probably don't have x-ray vision, and that you only want to discuss that silly ticket in your hand, but I thought I'd just muddle things up by bringing up the fact that I'm legally carrying a loaded handgun. Doesn't that make you feel a lot better about discussing my ticket with me? No? I didn't think so. Wasted a little of your time? Yeah, I thought you might say that."
 
Seriously, WA, what happens the next time you are visiting IN and are stopped by an LEO who draws and starts barking orders as soon as you reach "...let you know I have a firearm...?" They're not accustomed to hearing about it! (Might be wise to at least mention "carry permit" first, btw).

I abide by my point, that it matters what the law (and custom) is where you are because the officer's expectations are going to be set by that. In non-notification states, they're not expecting the matter to come up. "When in Rome...!"

It's fun to assume if we let on we're junior members of the lodge that we'll get a wink and wave on our ticket, but A) that's not exactly playing by the rules and B) don't count on it.
 
WA, your reply is a non-answer to my query.

You still have not overcome the major points raised by me and others.

Most notably, you have not addressed the fact that informing the cop you are armed is something that ONLY a non-threat to the cop would do. Hence, telling him doesn't benefit him a whit.

And anyway, he is supposed to be approaching the situation cautiously and warily specifically because people who are a threat to him are not going to say, "Oh, by the way officer, for your safety I'm informing you that I'm carrying a gun." No, they'd just shoot him. That'd be his "notification."

I would appreciate more than just a blow-off answer to my specific questions. The one you gave actually comes off as being rather snide.


-azurefly
 
I'll toss some more mud into the fray.

In KY, it is completely legal to carry a LOADED weapon in your glove box, W/O a CCW. (NOT to be confused with a center console... carrying it there, w/o a CCW, will get you a felony rap.) Has been since mid 80's with the KRS, which affirmed Open carry as fully legal.

However, don't try to do it in downtown Louisville, Frankfort, or Lexington ... the local constabulary frown on it and will treat you as creating a disturbance ... I know .. totally uncool and would get the smackdown from any civil liberties lawyer IF he had the wherewithal to prosecute, but most are beholden to the ACLU, which seems to have forgotten that the Second Amendment ensures enforcement of all the others.


In GA, it is completely legal to carry a LOADED weapon in your glove box, or on your dashboard, but not on the seat next to you, if you don't have a CCW.

I was in the Navy in GA, and went to apply for a CCW. found out that even though I was a property owner, I wasn't eligible for one because I wes registered to vote in PA (by absentee ballot), although the law said "any" not "all" of the situations. and GA is a "shall issue" state.
The thing that REALLY annoyed me, however, about GA's law, was that if I was a "diplomat" I could apply for, and would be granted, a CCW. A DIPLOMAT!! NOT EVEN a US CITIZEN. And they had higher ranking than I did. I wasn't a diplomat. I was a LOWLY MEMBER OF THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES. SIGHHHHHH ... but I digress...
Had a friend of mine (worked in the camden county sherrif's office) tell me to " read the law", you don't really need a CCW permit. So I did. and yes, he was right. The only thing that was lacking was a "prudent person" clause.

In FL, open carry was authorized by the shall issue law in around 86. don't carry open in ORLANDO , or any other major metro area, you'll be eating concrete. FL also allows carry in glove box, but weapon must be UNLOADED.


AS ALWAYS, DON'T take my word for it, read the law. this info is MY interpretation of the law when I was a resident of the state. I last lived in FL in 1990. I last lived in GA in 1994. I now live in KY.
 
If I recall correctly, recent law (98) in GA now allows a citizen to carry inside a vehicle in any manner the owner wishes. I think one specified exception is under the seat, as in on the floor. I think this change occurred when vehicles registered to you were made an extension of your domicile. It was a reaction to a rise in vehicle highjackings. Vehicle highkackings are now at an historic low. 'Course, one or two busy intersection stop light highjacker wannabes got informed of the new law the hard way.
 
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