LE ammo question

The U.S. has used hollow point ammo over the last few decades (and as it's become more reliable) where needed in special forces operations, specific tasks, etc.

Ball ammo is generally used by all nations in combat. It is less expensive to manufacture. Has greater penetration. Is less likely to deform or be damaged in handling, etc. It's better battle field ammo.

It was pointed out before but the Hague conventions only covered those who signed them and only regarding conflict between them. The only signers were imperialist powers. So it was legal to use the "inhumane" weapons on their possessions but not against each others.

By the time the conventions were signed the use of "dum-dum" and hollowpoint ammo was militarily obsolete. The invention of smokeless powder led to a revolution in bullet design with jacketed spitzer bullets becoming the new norm. I believe that only the British still used exposed lead bullets at that time and then not for long. The same was true for semi auto pistols which were becoming the norm. There was no reliable hollowpoint ammo for pistols at that time. It was the rough equivalent of signing an agreement limiting the number of Missouri class battleships in the 21st century.

Finally once WWI began the gangs of thieves who signed the accords threw them out the window in their wars on each other.

tipoc
 
hollow points are desired because they cause the most tissue damage and provide the best chance for incapacitating an enemy.

most militaries around the world do not use them because they are bound by the hague conventions which outlaws the use of inhumane combat practices, such as toxic gas, biological warfare, and rounds that are designed to expand or explode in soft targets.
 
The U.S. was not a signatory to the Hague accords, but has stated formally that it would adhere to them. (None of those international agreements apply to police.) That policy has not changed even though most of our current enemies are not signatories of any international conventions not, for the most part, even being nations or armed forces under the control of a nation. Put simply, we are treating what amounts to a gang of armed religious maniacs as if they were a respectable and responsible military force. Compared to our current enemies, the Nazis were kind and gentle and always obeyed the laws of war.

Jim
 
Officer training is probably far more important than the type of ammo issued.
Misses are more dangerous than whether the police are shooting hollow points or ball ammo.
 
The only agency that I've heard of carrying FMJ was Detroit PD. As I recall, it was a decision of the city counsel. This may or may not have changed over the last few years though.
 
I'm retired now, but I've never heard of a LEO agency not using hollow points exclusively from the late '80s on. What happened before that, I don't know.

Back in the '90s, one of our local government guys cancelled out agency's order for our duty ammo, which were of course, jacketed hollow points in .357 magnum and 9mm at the time. When our academy's training director went before him, asking him for the reason why the order was cancelled, the government guy told him that he believed that hollow point ammo was illegal, and was banned in the '70s.

Our academy director had to go round and round with the government guy for a while before convincing him that it wasn't illegal, and that it was common ammunition for LEOs and civilians, let alone being our policy to carry in our duty weapons. Where the government guy got that belief, I don't kn....oh yeah, he was a government guy.
 
I am not a fan of hollow point in my CC, nor am I a proponent of full jacket. I carry Hornady Critical Duty that is designed for the CIA to meet all 12 of their requirements for service. You've got to get through the outer layer first (glass, armor, cloth, bone) before the bullet gets to the critical damage chest area (Aorta, heart, lungs) with a shock that will stop the assailant. Hollow points work going through a cloth shirt, sternum, and is already distorted for knock-down. Now there are several self defense rounds that are hollow point deadly, but I wish to follow Hornady's approach in effective knock-down.
 
In the 1970s, some politicians—primarily in the Northeast and the Upper Midwest—reportedly tried to ban hollow-points AND Magnum calibers using the argument that they were "inhumane." Unlike more recent gun ban supporters, the proponents of these measures were remarkably even-handed and non-hypocritical, in that the bans applied (or would have applied) to private citizens and LE alike.

A few resultant local bans and LE department policies have long since been rescinded, except for a NJ law that is unfortunately still with us, albeit only as applied to private citizens. :(

Disclaimer: I write "reportedly" because I've read no detailed history of the original proposals—only 1980s gun-mag articles decrying such rules as ridiculous after most had already been rolled back or were stillborn. :rolleyes:

FWIW the Magnum caliber ban was the reason for the development of .38 Special +P+ ammunition, which in most of its forms was basically .357 Magnum in disguise. Although all but one manufacturer has since discontinued it, it was arguably the seed from which +P+ loads in other calibers have sprouted.
 
Last edited:
Hollow points work going through a cloth shirt, sternum, and is already distorted for knock-down. Now there are several self defense rounds that are hollow point deadly, but I wish to follow Hornady's approach in effective knock-down.
Click to expand...

No handgun is going knock anyone down, regardless of what bullet it spits out.

A human being might fall down when hit for a number of reasons, but none of those will be because the bullet knocked him down.
 
The shift to hollow point rounds and semi auto guns from solid lead and revolvers began in the seventies and really exploded, iirc, in the early nineties.

At this time, I cannot recall seeing a revolver on any officer in many years, and I haven't seen anything other than hp rounds in decades. Our pd has a list of approved guns and they do not list revolvers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top