LE ammo question

S

Sawyer.N

New member
Typically, will a local PD, sheriffs deputies, detective or any other type of LE use hollow points? I understand that the military does not use hollow points in their sidearms (or I have at least gathered that from what I have read, correct me if I am wrong).

I am interested to know, because an LEO may have to use his or her weapon at any point in the line of duty, anywhere a bad guy is doing what bad guys do, and over penetration is a legitimate concern while shooting a bad guy in a populated city street, or parking lot or what ever.

Any experience you have to share with me is much appreciated. Thank you
 
Almost universally. I was a department armorer and gunsmith back int he 80's and only saw factory hollow points carried int her duty pistols.
 
To greater or lesser degrees, I work with our city, county and state agencies. I'm 100% certain that our city and state police use JHPs (I go shooting with some of those officers from time to time and have seen what's in their magazines), and I'm almost certain that the county does, as well. I have a few friends there, but haven't gone to their range.
 
I think you would be hard pressed to find any LE agencies not using hollow points, the military is going to them as well.
 
The military does not use hollow points (for the average soldier) currently

Aulthough there has been some talk of them adopting it with use when the Sig takes over as the primary side arm

I've heard the reason has to do the the Geneva Convention or some old rule prohibiting expanding ammo.

Not really sure about that

But I do know they never gave me a single round of it


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As stated, LE agencies almost universally use hollow points. My department uses Federal HST to be precise. We used Speer Gold Dot before that.


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policy

My agency would specify US manufacture, a range of bullet weights, and state "hollowpoiont, expanding ammunition" for duty carry.

However, there was quite a bit of FMJ purchased for training use, as it was more affordable.
 
I' haven't seen or heard of anyone in LE not using HP ammo in the last 40 years or so. It is far more effective meaning fewer shots need to be fired which lowers the risk of stray bullets going God knows where. They are also less likely to pass through and hit others and missed shots less likely to over penetrate or ricochet.

The Hague Accords were a document signed by many countries prior to WW-1 that banned the use of expanding bullets. The Geneva Convention dealt with how prisoners were treated.

The USA didn't participate in, nor sign the Hague Accords so there is no reason not to use HP ammo in the military from that point of view. But FMJ historically has fed more reliably and offers much better barrier penetration compared to HP bullets. Today there probably isn't much difference in reliability, but the difference in barrier penetration is still a factor. In certain situations I can see both FMJ and HP used by the military depending on the mission.
 
I specificed Winchester Ranger .40 cal, 165 gr JHP when ordering ammo for my dept. i got it shipped direct from Winchester and a hundred thousand at a time, officers were required to carry issue ammo and the same was shot for training as duty thus carry ammo was shot at least each quarter
 
I was employed in L/E form 1974 - 2001. Both of the departments I worked for issued 38 special +P FBI load. Most of us opted to purchase .357 Magnum J.H.P. ammo. All of the officers, from assorted agencies, carried H.P. of one sort or another.
 
Targa said:
The ammo for my M9 that is issued to me when I am on reserve duty is now hollow point.
Click to expand...



That's a change

I got out in 2007 and we never had HP ammo, not even on deployments.

Perhaps they are starting to phase it in


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I will ask are armorer when I see him this weekend about the change. I believe it has been less than a year, so yes, very recent.
 
When the Seattle PD switched to HP ammo it was justified by saying it would cut down on ricochets.
This was a big deal because there were a lot of bullets that missed their marks.
 
Depends on where you are. Not allowed up here.
"...which lowers the risk of stray bullets going God knows where...." Unless it's the copper's total lack of skill. Suspect it was a locker room bet that caused a local guy to be running through a residential neighbourhood, pistol drawn and discharging 13 rounds in all directions. One went through a house wall or window and struck the wall over a crib. Fortunately empty. Other rounds cause property damage. Never did heard what happened to the cop. News report said he was chasing somebody. BS story. No need for him to have his weapon in hand.
"...USA didn't participate in, nor sign the Hague Accords..." Neither did Japan. The U.S. didn't sign Geneva until after W.W. II. 1949 specifically. Still claimed the protection, but that's allowed in the 'treaty'.
Mind you, there were multiple Hague and Geneva Conventions. The U.S. signed the First Hague Peace Conference of 1899(the laws and customs of war) in 1902. That one outlawed looting.
The Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907 banned bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body. That technical includes lead shot.
Napalm and other incendiaries (including flame throwers) were outlawed in 1973. No lasers, land mines that don't self-destruct or made of plastic, gases assorted, punji traps, bio-weapons or hollow point bullets either. An MP on base isn't in combat. Using HP's in combat is a war crime.
 
The Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907 banned bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body.
Click to expand...
They did (not the Geneva Convention, as is often incorrectly cited), but there's a wrinkle. The prohibition on expanding ammunition is in Article 4 of the accords, and it is only binding in conditions of war between signatories.

The United States only signed onto the first three articles, so whether or not we're legally bound by the conditions of Article 4 is an open question. Furthermore, none of the nations with which we've engaged in the recent past are signatories, so it's a moot point.
 
Back in the 1970s, I would alternate hollowpoints with soft-nose expanding bullets in my revolver. My HPs were 125 grain +p, and the soft-nose were 158 +p. But after 1983 when I switched to a Beretta 92, I used hollowpoints. I used a variety of HP ammo for the rest of my career (retired 2011) depending on agency I was with at the time. Some issued ammo and required it for on/off duty carry, some allowed personal purchase/carry.
 
If I remember correctly, there was a copy of a letter floating around that the US used to justify the use of Sierra Matchking .308 rounds in sniper ammunition.

--
Mike
 
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