LC Smith or ????? - advice on classic SxS sought

I have to echo "stuckinthesixties" and "ricklin". The internal condition, round count, and past usage will be unknown on the older SxS's, and parts availability could be problematic. Instead, I would buy a current production gun.

CZ makes two tiers of SxS's. The lower tier is the bobwhite and it is simply a re-badged turkish huglu. They reportedly have problems with firing pin and hammer spring breakage. The upper tier is the Sharp tail. A short while ago, CZ invested in new CNC machinery at huglu for the manufacture of their premium O/U and SxS's. The lock works and firing pin were re-designed and coil springs were used for the hammers instead of flat springs. I purchased a new sharp tail last summer for about 1,000 $. The fit and finish are excellent. Obviouly I can't yet speak to its longevity.

The other option is a new Savage Fox. You should go the the savage website and view the new Fox. It has everything you wanted, including double triggers. It would truly be an heirloom shotgun. The problem is that it is twice your budget. However, if it is financially possible, I would look closely at the new Fox.
 
Last edited:
Lots of guns

A perusal of Gunbroker and other auction sites will find loads of older SXS shotguns.
The problem? Separating the "wheat from the chaff" IE: finding those good guns when pictures are the only thing we have.

Again I understand the as is policies. I might risk a few hundred, if I am spending close to 1 K or more I would require either an inspection period, or go see the gun myself.
Mirror bores can be a well cared for gun, or Bubba with a brake cylinder hone getting ALL the pits out and making a fine gun dangerous to fire.
How is it choked? What are the stock dimensions?
The intriguing guns that may be a real bargain are often from sellers that can't provide important data. Most pawn shops don't know how to measure stock dimensions and do not have a choke gauge.
Cracked stocks are very common on old doubles. Replacing the stock on a sidelock gun is NOT DIY territory. Some can be saved by glass bedding, the inletting is very complex for sidelocks. Perhaps teenagers pulling both triggers? Nah, just old wood and in many cases too much oil.
 
One thing with older guns is also the stock dimensions; those old guns have a LOT more drop than guns of more recent vintage and as a result, usually do not fit folks that well.
 
A good place to look would be:
www.gunsinternational.com

This is a sale site, NOT an auction; most sellers are reputable brick and mortar establishments with excellent results. You can select by name, type, US, or English of whatever.

One friend collects old SxS and he loves buying from Rock Island Auctions; he has purchased many Euro double guns for little money because they weren't a H&H or Boss or similar high-end but a typical Birmingham or french boxlock
 
If you get in to clays

A lot of folks enjoy shooting clay targets. I call it an expensive addiction.

A more modern gun with good parts availability would be a superior choice if that might be you.
Only way to get good at shooting clay targets is to shoot a lot of them.

My point is the round count will be high should you really get in to shooting clays.
That can be a problem with guns that are hard to get parts for.

An old SXS is great for a few hundred per year, when hundreds become thousands, perhaps not so much.
 
Ricklin said:
A lot of folks enjoy shooting clay targets. I call it an expensive addiction.



A more modern gun with good parts availability would be a superior choice if that might be you.

Only way to get good at shooting clay targets is to shoot a lot of them.



My point is the round count will be high should you really get in to shooting clays.

That can be a problem with guns that are hard to get parts for.



An old SXS is great for a few hundred per year, when hundreds become thousands, perhaps not so much.
Click to expand...
That is a very good point. I've shot enough clays to know I enjoy it, but I've never gravitated to it the way I do flintlocks and rifles. However, things change. I'll keep in mind that if I do get deep into this, a new production gun makes a lot of sense. In the meantime, I'm going Sunday to look at a LC Smith that (so far) ticks all the boxes at $525. We'll see if it's really all that..... [emoji848][emoji2955]

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
Some good advice here.

I would definitely read up on this at the double gunshop forum.

LC smiths, like all real sidelocks, are thin in the head- and thus prone to internal cracking. Especially if they became oil soaked.

Boxlocks [Think Parker, Stevens 311, Winchester Model 21, etc] generally are stronger in this area- but oil can damage any old wood.

IF the LC smith was made between about 1940 and their 'end' around 1947, it should have what they touted as the 'improved strength stock'.


A few considerations on these older shotguns:
1- they are not steel shot rated. Yes, you can 'probably' get away with shooting #4 to #9 steel shot out of it, if the shot is moving under 1300fps. Yet, you cannot rely on 'normal' steel hunting loads out of these shotguns without risk of bulging barrels or breaking things.
2- the consensus around the double-gun forum seems to be that it is wisest to use guns producing under 9000 psi of pressure. The steel might be fine up to 11000psi, but under 9000 psi and you are less likely to damage steel and less likely to damage the wooden stock with too much pressure.
IIRC, sometime around 1927-31 is when 2 3/4 shells began to be made with more powerful powders that lead europe to call them 'magnum' loads- even though they are still 2 3/4" shells.
3- LC Smith seems to have always used 2 3/4" shells, but other manufacturers used 2 1/2" or 2 9/16" chambers up into the 1930s- or later if european. Be careful. And be careful if someone reamed the chamber to the 2 3/4" from something else. IF they did it wrong- it is paper thin in the forcing cone area.
4- Don't be afraid to look for JP Sauer & Sohn S&Ss. I picked up a Model 60 [probably made 1958-63] for around $600. Well, mine was the deluxe model [1 trigger and beavertail forend- the non deluxe was 2 trigger and splinter forend]. The steel on the barrel feels/looks thicker and the boxlock is strong.


Good luck with the LC you are checking out. They are nice shotguns! Just keep to lead or bismouth, and keep the loads light.

I know some have shot heavy loads from them, but I plan on following the advice for light, and keeping it in good shape to hand down to my granddaughter. [Winchester makes low noise low recoil 12g that is light enough].
 
LC Smith and heavy loads

Agreed, today's heavy loads are not the heavy loads that LC Smith claimed their guns were proved for.
They are strong guns, FOR THE TIME THEY WERE MADE. In many cases that was a full century ago. My LC Smith SBT is 102 this year, a very spry 102 I might add.
It's what I love about old guns. How many other 100 year old products can you buy that do the same job they did 100 years ago, equally as well?

That construction quality is a genuine plus for target guns. Pumping up the velocity blows patterns. Thus it makes zero sense to raise the velocity and lower your scores.
In addition many shooters practice with lighter than 1 1/8 oz. loads for clay games. 3/4, 7/8, and one ounce loads save money, save shoulders, save guns? For sure less lead produces less pressure that's a plus in my book.

I would buy a Damascus gun for clay targets, that of course would require a qualified inspection, there is fiscally conservative and there is stupid. I would like to think I belong to that first group.

There are too many Bubba's in the world, 100 year old shotguns with "mirror bores" the mirror bores are often a recent addition.

For those that do not reload shotgun there are plenty of low pressure rounds available. Group buys at my club kept my round cost in check when I was shooting a lot. At worst I was shooting premium quality rounds at slightly lower cost than the promo shells.
 
Ricklin- good post!

I agree about the quality and older guns. My LC isn't THAT old [1947], but I have a 1915 Parker Trojan and an 1895 Mauser 7x57- which both are working 'just right'.

Everything else I own was made no farther back than 1935- even if the design goes to around 1903.

I like using those older items and shooting better than people with the newest/greatest thing since sliced bread. of course, it depends on the shooter at both ends.
 
guns are like cars.
I remember a young kid who had a love affair with the 1965 ford thunderbird. he swore one day hed own one.
one day he took me with him to look at one.
it was a rust bucket, with rotted seats, balled tires, and blue smoke when it idled. he was all happy, had cash, and was set on buying it, and wanted my opinion.
I told him, joe....'the 1965 thunderbird is a great car.....but not this one.'
then, one day he took me to another car, it had a repainted body, cleaned up interior, new tires, ran smooth, and looked fine. one problem, the chassis was rusted out underneath to point the swingarms were ready to separate from the frame.
then one day, he found his car in an old guys garage with original finish and low mileage. he only drove it on sunny weekends. sadly, the guy was preparing for the afterlife and had to let it go. it was a cherry. he paid a little more for it, but it was well worth it.

so.....you have one car showing its true condition and one car cleaned up to give the appearance of being nice when it wasn't, and the 'every collectors dream car.' which would you want to drive?

old American sbs shotguns are the same game.
good luck in your quest to make a wise decision.
 
Last edited:
It seems we have some kindred spirits here when it comes to old guns.

While I am getting closer to pulling the plug I've been in manufacturing for decades. Another 5 years......is there a 12 step program? I will quit when I stop enjoying it.

Collecting guns? Few things reflect history and the importance of manufacturing better. The history of manufacturing is very well told via firearms. The strength of a nation mirrors the strength of their manufacturing base.


Samuel Colt is a fascinating example, as are his contemporaries. In many respects capitalism driving manufacturing is truly what made America great.

The durability of those well manufactured firearms is quite impressive.
 
Collecting guns? Few things reflect history and the importance of manufacturing better. The history of manufacturing is very well told via firearms. The strength of a nation mirrors the strength of their manufacturing base.
Click to expand...

Then you would need to go back to the granddaddy of firearm manufacturing - Pietro Beretta
 
I have yet to

Thanks FITASC, I'm a voracious reader and shall read up in him.

BTW, I love your Zappa quote, he was a true genius and I don't use that term lightly.
His death was mourned by classical musicians and composers, that is a touch unusual, the classical music world recognized the genius of a "rock star" tho that title does not really apply. Genius does apply.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top