LC Smith 1900 sxs - black powder?

I have an Elsie hammerless made around 1911 that has fluid steel barrels and 2 3/4 chambers. I use modern ammo in it. Have the barrels checked to see if they're damascus, they came both ways and check the length of the chambers. I have a damascus barreled SXS I cut down plastic shells to 2 1/2 inches and load with bp as well as an 87 Winchester I do the same with. bp does melt the inside of the shells so you only get one or two reloads with most shells. Do not shoot a damascus barrel just because I do, Have it checked by somebody that knows what they're doing. Brass shells would be the way to go with bp.
 
Ok thanks for that. I really do need to go to a gunsmith. I would love to just load it up with light shells...

Otherwise I will look into brass and bp.
 
Yeah, first thing is to figure out if it's in safe condition at all, and then whether it has Damascus barrels or is proofed for smokeless. Even if most of the finish is gone, you should be able to pop off the fore end and look underneath to see if it's got stars or stripes that would indicate laminated steel.

I load my own black powder shells for my Damascus barreled L. C. Smith. But I gave up on paper and plastic hulls and now use the Magtech all-brass shells, with paper/fiber wads. Midway USA or Ballistic Products should carry everything you need- http://www.ballisticproducts.com/MagTech-12ga-2-1_2-empty-brass-shotshells-for-reloading/productinfo/3921270/
Note the chart showing that you need 11 gauge wads & 10 gauge overshot cards for these, since they're thinner than paper hulls.

These brass hulls should last dang near forever, so they're not a bad investment long term. My great grandpa was a market waterfowler, and a lot of his all-brass shells could still be used today.
 
the possum said:
Yeah, first thing is to figure out if it's in safe condition at all, and then whether it has Damascus barrels or is proofed for smokeless. Even if most of the finish is gone, you should be able to pop off the fore end and look underneath to see if it's got stars or stripes that would indicate laminated steel.

I load my own black powder shells for my Damascus barreled L. C. Smith. But I gave up on paper and plastic hulls and now use the Magtech all-brass shells, with paper/fiber wads. Midway USA or Ballistic Products should carry everything you need- http://www.ballisticproducts.com/MagTech-12ga-2-1_2-empty-brass-shotshells-for-reloading/productinfo/3921270/
Note the chart showing that you need 11 gauge wads & 10 gauge overshot cards for these, since they're thinner than paper hulls.

These brass hulls should last dang near forever, so they're not a bad investment long term. My great grandpa was a market waterfowler, and a lot of his all-brass shells could still be used today.
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Wow thanks a ton. I so have a shotgun press so I just need to get the other supplies.

And you shoot 2 1/2 in the LC SMith?
 
And you shoot 2 1/2 in the LC SMith?
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Yeah, that's what mine takes, and that's also how long the brass shells happen to be made. You should be able to easily measure your chambers to verify.

Keep in mind you're not giving up any performance/payload with the shorter shells vs. a modern 2 3/4" shell. The modern pie or star crimped shells need the extra length just to make the folded crimp; you still have just as much space in the 2 1/2" shell when it's roll crimped or has an overshot wad glued in the top.

Plus, the brass shells have a lot more room in the head for the extra bulk of black powder. That was one of the big headaches with cut-down plastic hulls. Nothing seemed to fit properly & they needed lots of experimenting and fiddling with spacer wads to get the shot column to the proper height.
 
Oh, and keep in mind the brass Magtech shells take pistol primers rather than shotgun primers. So you may have to tap out the primers with a punch or ground down nail separately first. I got the 12 gauge shell holder so I can work them with my single stage press (that I use mainly for rifle/pistol). I also use antique hand loading tools from Great Grandpa Schneider since I don't have a shotshell reloading press.
 
Have it checked for safety, measure the chambers so you know the length of the shell needed. If it is shootable don't worry about plastic hulls with BP. Yes, the crimp gets scorched but will last about 3 reloadings. The plastic buildup in the barrels comes from plastic wads being sanded onto the BP fouling and then getting melted into the fouling with the flame of each shot. It is no big deal to remove: spray the bores down with a water based solvent, let it sit a minute or two and then punch a wad of paper towel down each bore and the black plastic will be pushed out the muzzle. Any remaining fouling can be easily be removed with a "Tornado" brush. Lube the bores after cleaning.

I have shot several thousand BP loads mostly using plastic hulls and plastic wads and I clean up like I just said. Paper hulls will need to be pulled from the chambers as they will swell when fired. No biggie if you are not being timed like I am during a Cowboy Action Shoot. The brass hulls will swell if you load them heavily and may stick in the chamber or need full length resizing. Brass hulls need 11 gauge wads for best gas sealing since the walls of the brass hulls are much thinner than plastic or paper. Brass hulls are more costly than the hulls you can dumpster dive and get for free at the trap range.

A plastic wad has the advantage of a better gas seal because the over powder (OP) wad will conform to the shape of the hull and barrel as it traverses the barrel. I'd suggest you load up some shells with plastic wads & hulls to see if you really like BP shooting before investing in the brass hulls that need different wads & primers. To make more room in a paper or plastic hull you can often cut the "legs" out of a plastic wad to shorten it. The AA wad is great for being adjustable: You can shoot it as is for light loads (40-50grs BP and 7/8oz shot) in a Remington hull. Or you can cut the struts out completely between the shot cup and the OP wad for maximum room in the hull for powder & shot (70-80grs+ 1 1/8oz shot). A mid-length wad can be made by cutting across the legs of the AA wad and rotating it 90 degrees and pushing the two halves back together.

If your gun has chokes, odds are you'll get decent patterns. I always pattern my shotguns against a sheet of freezer paper stapled to a cardboard box set out about 15 yards away and marked with an aiming point. If you get donut patterns then increase the shot or decrease the powder. If your pattern from each barrel is even or center dense you are good to go.
 
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Have it checked for safety, measure the chambers so you know the length of the shell needed. If it is shootable don't worry about plastic hulls with BP. Yes, the crimp gets scorched but will last about 3 reloadings. The plastic buildup in the barrels comes from plastic wads being sanded onto the BP fouling and then getting melted into the fouling with the flame of each shot. It is no big deal to remove: spray the bores down with a water based solvent, let it sit a minute or two and then punch a wad of paper towel down each bore and the black plastic will be pushed out the muzzle. Any remaining fouling can be easily be removed with a "Tornado" brush. Lube the bores after cleaning.
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Thanks a ton for all that info.
 
Yesterday I got 6 doves with my L C Smith & Pyrodex shells. It was a lot of fun, even though I missed far more. The worst part is always cleaning the gun afterwards- it took me nearly an hour. The fouling gets in every nook and cranny on the breech and extractors.

I do have a question for you guys though. What kind of glue do you use to keep the overshot cards secure? A couple of mine popped open & spilled shot in the bag. I've read that Isinglass (?) was used traditionally, but haven't found any locally.
 
While many are still usable, do not consider any Damascus / twist barrel to be 100% safe, even with black powder!

Even if your gunsmith gives it an ok, you cannot be certain it won't fail at some point. Truth is, neither can your gunsmith.

There is no (non destructive) way to see inside the welds of the barrel, where rust COULD have formed. SO, even the finest looking gun, a century+ down the line, could have undetectable "cancer" in the barrel, and COULD burst at any time.

Yes, many of them have shot tens of thousands of shells, I'm not saying it WILL happen, (With black powder), but that it COULD. As long as you know that, go ahead and shoot all you feel comfortable with.

Me, I would hang it up as display, just to be on the safe side.

Now, if you are shooting smokeless in a twist barrel, I'll say that it WILL happen, but can't say when...one gun I know of went 30 years on smokeless shells, with any sign of a problem. Until the day the left barrel "unwraveled"...
 
Even if your gunsmith gives it an ok, you cannot be certain it won't fail at some point. Truth is, neither can your gunsmith.

There is no (non destructive) way to see inside the welds of the barrel, where rust COULD have formed. SO, even the finest looking gun, a century+ down the line, could have undetectable "cancer" in the barrel, and COULD burst at any time.
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The same could be said for any barrel. Yes, Damascus barrels have more potential for this if there was a forging flaw, but if it was welded correctly from the start, the metal is fused into one solid piece like any other.

If it ever gets to the point I'm seriously concerned about this, maybe I'd reproof it with overloads, and get behind a wall with a string on the trigger.
 
The same could be said for any barrel.
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NO, it can't be said for any barrel. Modern barrels (the earliest ones were called "fluid steel) are made differently. They are made from a single piece of steel, and bored.

Damascus (and twist) barrels were made by wrapping straps of metal (2 or 4 for twist barrels 6 or 8 for "true Damascus") around a mandrel and hammering them together often by hand (hammer welding).

This method ALWAYS produces small gaps (bubbles) in the interior of the welds. It is NOT the same as the welding we know today. The different straps were literally pounded together, and are NOT fused into one solid piece all the way through, the way heat welding melts pieces together.

Plenty good enough for the ammo used in the late 1800s, and, if in good condition good enough for that same ammo today, BUT, it is possible that there is deterioration, inside the welds that cannot be seen, a hundred and more years since they were new.
 
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