Laser and/or flashlight on .45ACP Semi-Auto
- Thread starter SerenityNetworks
- Start date
as already stated, lasers will take training to get used to and have to be zeroed at a particular range. especially with handgun calibers, there will be a significant different between POA and POI both over and under the zeroed range simply because there is usually several inches of difference between bore axis and light/laser axis.
my Glock 21SF wears a TLR-1HL and it not only fits well to that large frame but i've transferred it over to even my Glock 19 (and Five Seven, CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical, etc) and it fits perfectly there too. strobe function, high lumen output and compact design. my TLR-3 sits unused currently. i had it originally on a PF9 but i hate DAO guns, so i sold the pistol.
i personally stayed away from lasers to save battery life, complexity of operation, weight and cost. with all of that plus the issue of zeroing it really wasn't worth it for me. i do see the point of lasers but seeing a cheaper red laser in daylight it nearly impossible (for training). if you're going to do it, go with a green laser (my opinion). in my opinion all of those costs are not worth owning a laser equipped weapon with one possible exception and that is mounted on a bedside gun that you will share with a less experienced shooter in the sole role of a home defense firearm. only then is it worth the time, money, and training to own a laser.
i also hate grip lasers. a proper grip on almost any semi-auto pistol puts my hand in the way of the laser beam (read: a grip as high as possible to mitigate recoil and make follow up shots easier)
my Glock 21SF wears a TLR-1HL and it not only fits well to that large frame but i've transferred it over to even my Glock 19 (and Five Seven, CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical, etc) and it fits perfectly there too. strobe function, high lumen output and compact design. my TLR-3 sits unused currently. i had it originally on a PF9 but i hate DAO guns, so i sold the pistol.
i personally stayed away from lasers to save battery life, complexity of operation, weight and cost. with all of that plus the issue of zeroing it really wasn't worth it for me. i do see the point of lasers but seeing a cheaper red laser in daylight it nearly impossible (for training). if you're going to do it, go with a green laser (my opinion). in my opinion all of those costs are not worth owning a laser equipped weapon with one possible exception and that is mounted on a bedside gun that you will share with a less experienced shooter in the sole role of a home defense firearm. only then is it worth the time, money, and training to own a laser.
i also hate grip lasers. a proper grip on almost any semi-auto pistol puts my hand in the way of the laser beam (read: a grip as high as possible to mitigate recoil and make follow up shots easier)
SerenityNetworks
New member
I'm taking this and similar statements to imply that a laser isn't good unless your target is at the particular range for which the laser is zeroed. If that's what is meant then I don't get it. Per my examples (and understanding) above, even with a huge 3" negative offset, a laser zeroed at 35 yards will put the bullet within a 3" area at any distance between the muzzle and 50 yards. That seems perfectly acceptable to me for both mid-sized game and self-defense if shooting at center mass. It's only if trying to shoot bulls-eyes that a laser would need to be adjusted for a specific range and then shot at that range; but that's not the purpose of a laser. Am I missing something or misunderstanding?
most people do not zero at 35yds and the commonly accepted range to test a pistols accuracy (in a vice) is at 25yds and not 35.
that being said, if you can make it work for you and think it's your best bet then go for it.
i simply cited the reasons i decided not to. perhaps your particular use case would lend itself better to laser ownership. i've had several on different platforms and of varying types (CT grips, guiderod laser, dovetail sight integrated, rail mounted pistol, rail mounted rifle) and none of them were as useful as i had hoped and all were more expensive than i could justify for the very little usage they saw.
that being said, if you can make it work for you and think it's your best bet then go for it.
i simply cited the reasons i decided not to. perhaps your particular use case would lend itself better to laser ownership. i've had several on different platforms and of varying types (CT grips, guiderod laser, dovetail sight integrated, rail mounted pistol, rail mounted rifle) and none of them were as useful as i had hoped and all were more expensive than i could justify for the very little usage they saw.
I zero mine for closer distances just because that's where I'm most likely to be wanting to shoot in a defense scenario, and 5 yards might be on the far end of that likely range. I can usually hit a lot better than 3" off even at 25 yards at the range, definitely from a rest, so if I want to be accurate I have to reset the laser. Not a huge deal, but it's an annoyance, maybe more of an annoyance than I expected when I mounted the laser. The bigger challenge for me was getting used to focusing my eyes on the target instead of the sights, and I found myself flinching a lot at first.
I have Trijicons on two of the guns I carry, and they are certainly quite bright for night-adjusted vision. The dots are also quite small and, with my eyesight, generally quite blurred. So, for me at least, I seriously question whether I'm actually going to use them in a 'situation'. One never knows, and I have them--I just think I'm going to point and shoot if the distance is what I expect it to be (under 2-5 yds).
I have not used a laser myself--mostly because of how many people I've seen at the range using them and not hitting squat. I see them as being far slower than sights anytime I've observed them being used, with far too much distraction caused by a mass of jiggly green all over the place--seldom on the target. I'm sure training can solve this problem; I don't think they're inherently 'bad' devices.
As for lights, I held a similar low opinion of them until I had them flashed in my face a couple of times--now I'm thinking quite differently. IF I practice with it and IF I can get to it in time (same goes for the gun itself), then I think a bright light such as the TLR-1 or TLR-1 HL at $110-125 is going to be extremely effective in buying a lot of time. My gut feel is one of these would improve home defense effectiveness by about a factor of 10, actually.
I'd definitely have to mount it to the gun, otherwise I'd never find it, but I guess that's the idea.
I have not used a laser myself--mostly because of how many people I've seen at the range using them and not hitting squat. I see them as being far slower than sights anytime I've observed them being used, with far too much distraction caused by a mass of jiggly green all over the place--seldom on the target. I'm sure training can solve this problem; I don't think they're inherently 'bad' devices.
As for lights, I held a similar low opinion of them until I had them flashed in my face a couple of times--now I'm thinking quite differently. IF I practice with it and IF I can get to it in time (same goes for the gun itself), then I think a bright light such as the TLR-1 or TLR-1 HL at $110-125 is going to be extremely effective in buying a lot of time. My gut feel is one of these would improve home defense effectiveness by about a factor of 10, actually.
I'd definitely have to mount it to the gun, otherwise I'd never find it, but I guess that's the idea.
SerenityNetworks
New member
I seriously doubt I could put all that many bullets in a 10" pie plate at 50 yards with a .45. Shooting offhand with my 22/45 and factory sights, I'm a 16 MOA (4" at 25 yards) shooter on a good day. But more commonly, with 10 rounds, I'm going to have a couple that stretch me out to 6 inches (and not uncommonly more). I don't know where that places me related to what's considered average, but I suspect with the shorter sight radius on the SAR that I won't be near as good as with the 22/45.But with my question regarding flashlights and lasers largely answered, I've hijacked my own thread to clarify my understanding on the topic of zeroing lasers - that the offset of a laser is handled any differently than the offset of irons, red dot, or a scope. My point about the 25, 35, or whatever zero is not that I can hit a 3" area at 50 yards or would ever expect to shoot at something 50 yards away; it's simply about maximizing an effective kill range. If I want to keep all my shots for a given projectile and sight offset (irons, scope, laser, or whatever) within "x" area (x/2" POI above or below POA) then there will be a point at which I can zero my weapon (rifle, pistol, or whatever) that maximizes the distance at which the projectile will fall within that "x" area (whether it be 1", 3", or more). If I'm shooting at large game or defensively, where I consider a 3" area effective, then it makes sense to me to zero at the longer distances that maximize my 'point blank' range and doesn't put my shot drastically off if I do find myself shooting at something farther off than anticipated.
I can understand Jeff K's rationale and don't necessarily disagree. But since I'm a noob at pistols (at least as compared to my knowledge of riflery), I want to make sure that my conclusions are also valid. Especially since I don't have a pistol laser and my conclusions come purely from ballistic charts.
For example:
Assuming I'm using a .45 ACP, 230 Grain, American Eagle FMJ then:
a zero at 5 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 12 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 10 yards.
a zero at 10 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 22 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 19 yards.
a zero at 15 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 29 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 26 yards.
a zero at 20 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 36 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 33 yards.
a zero at 25 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 41 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 39 yards.
From what I can see, if I want to stay within that 3" area and my laser's offset is 3" then 25 yards turns out to be my optimal zeroing range. (See attached image.) Is this correct or are my conclusions nonsense?
Thanks again,
Andrew
Attachments
Sure, you picked an offset number you're happy with (3") and worked out where to zero the laser to maximize the range where the offset is less than that. You could have picked a different offset number, say 4" or 6", and you'd get a different result. Effectively I picked a smaller offset number (1.5") and worked out where to zero the laser so the offset is less than that over a specific range, 2.5-7.5 yards with my gun and laser. I'm guessing I'll never care about distances much beyond 7 yards outside the range (if I do I can still use the iron sights), and if I'm as close as 6 feet I'm probably not even going to use sights or lasers, because that's getting up-close and personal. Depends what you want and will be happy with.
Lots of people have trouble with lasers because they're focusing on the dot as though it is a sight. Like using a red dot sight, using a laser properly requires changing your aiming style from sight focused to target focused. When we learn to use iron sights we're taught to focus on the front sight, when we do that the target will blur. When using a laser or red dot you focus on the target and superimpose the dot on it, once you understand and become accustomed to this they are very fast and accurate. This is why I had laser grips on my BUG, I could make accurate hits without having to raise the gun to eye level to use the sights and I could do it with either hand.
SerenityNetworks
New member
Jeff, you are exactly right. There are many variables that will change what a person will want for a zero distance. Of course the big ones are the ammo, the amount of offset (barrel to laser), and the difference between POA and POI that is acceptable for the purpose.
For my purposes 1.5" high or low is fine. Since I'm more likely to use the gun in the field, I can easily see me wanting to make a shot of 20 or so yards. And if I do ever have to use the pistol against a BG at close range then whether I'm 1.5" high or low won't make any difference. Likewise, the ammo I have in the pistol at home (Speer Gold Dot) has much different ballistics than the ammo I use in the field. But if I ever get a laser for the pistol then I'll likely zero it for the field, as if I'm at close range the offset again won't make a difference.
I'm sorry I didn't mention it before. I get the trajectory/ballistics information for the various ammo from the ballistics calculator at gundata.org. It's helped me not waste ammo trying to find a good zero distance when sighting in my rifles. I'm older and not so good any more at quickly calculating in my head. I like to set my rifles so I know that between x yards and y yards I can just place the crosshairs on the animal, pull the trigger, and know that if my aim was good then the bullet will hit in a kill zone. I don't want to worry about magnification, bullet drop hash marks, notes in my scope covers, or anything.
WC, if I ever get a laser then I'm sure that will take some getting used to. I have used a laser on my rifles, but then I'm still looking through my scope. I'm sure it will seem odd at first trying to sight without looking through the sights. I've never done that before.
For my purposes 1.5" high or low is fine. Since I'm more likely to use the gun in the field, I can easily see me wanting to make a shot of 20 or so yards. And if I do ever have to use the pistol against a BG at close range then whether I'm 1.5" high or low won't make any difference. Likewise, the ammo I have in the pistol at home (Speer Gold Dot) has much different ballistics than the ammo I use in the field. But if I ever get a laser for the pistol then I'll likely zero it for the field, as if I'm at close range the offset again won't make a difference.
I'm sorry I didn't mention it before. I get the trajectory/ballistics information for the various ammo from the ballistics calculator at gundata.org. It's helped me not waste ammo trying to find a good zero distance when sighting in my rifles. I'm older and not so good any more at quickly calculating in my head. I like to set my rifles so I know that between x yards and y yards I can just place the crosshairs on the animal, pull the trigger, and know that if my aim was good then the bullet will hit in a kill zone. I don't want to worry about magnification, bullet drop hash marks, notes in my scope covers, or anything.
WC, if I ever get a laser then I'm sure that will take some getting used to. I have used a laser on my rifles, but then I'm still looking through my scope. I'm sure it will seem odd at first trying to sight without looking through the sights. I've never done that before.
Onward Allusion
New member
Lasers, Lights, Night Sights
I'm probably stating the obvious, but 3 different tools 3 different uses. Lasers for closer ranges and from weird angles where you are not using sights; Point shooting comes to mind. The light helps you see (duh) what you might be shooting at. Depending on the focus-ability of the light, it may also act as a point shooting aide. Night sights are for shooting when you are using sights (duh again). It's for further distances. Think - are you really gonna be extending your arms out to acquire your target when your assailant is across the room?
For my carry guns, they all have lasers and some have both lasers and night sights. I'm pretty sure if I ever had to use my carry gun, I am not going to have time to acquire the target using my irons. For my HD guns they have a laser/light combo.
FWIW, don't get a cheap laser. They break easily. Trust me. I have gone through thru the gamut of lasers. Stick with the better known brands: Streamlight, CrimsonTrace, LaserLyte, Viridian, or ArmaLaser. Save the cheap lasers for fun at the range.
I'm probably stating the obvious, but 3 different tools 3 different uses. Lasers for closer ranges and from weird angles where you are not using sights; Point shooting comes to mind. The light helps you see (duh) what you might be shooting at. Depending on the focus-ability of the light, it may also act as a point shooting aide. Night sights are for shooting when you are using sights (duh again). It's for further distances. Think - are you really gonna be extending your arms out to acquire your target when your assailant is across the room?
For my carry guns, they all have lasers and some have both lasers and night sights. I'm pretty sure if I ever had to use my carry gun, I am not going to have time to acquire the target using my irons. For my HD guns they have a laser/light combo.
FWIW, don't get a cheap laser. They break easily. Trust me. I have gone through thru the gamut of lasers. Stick with the better known brands: Streamlight, CrimsonTrace, LaserLyte, Viridian, or ArmaLaser. Save the cheap lasers for fun at the range.
SerenityNetworks
New member
LaserLyte went on sale today at the Cabela's down the block. (Yes, I have one five minutes from my house. Don't hate me for that.) Tomorrow is my birthday. Hmmm.
We have had lots of discussions about weapon mounted lights, lasers, etc. Search for them and you will find lots of opinions.
Personally, I don't like the idea of a light mounted on the gun. Others disagree. For the bulk of un and undertrained people, I feel they are an accident waiting to happen.
In the hands of trained professionals, it can be another story.
You sound like you have given it some thought, and would probably not be much of a risk with one. But when things are going on, and you have a light on your gun, its a very strong temptation to use that light to see things, which means pointing the gun at them. For many people I think that is a risky thing. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
Personally, I don't like the idea of a light mounted on the gun. Others disagree. For the bulk of un and undertrained people, I feel they are an accident waiting to happen.
In the hands of trained professionals, it can be another story.
You sound like you have given it some thought, and would probably not be much of a risk with one. But when things are going on, and you have a light on your gun, its a very strong temptation to use that light to see things, which means pointing the gun at them. For many people I think that is a risky thing. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
SerenityNetworks
New member
You bet! That is a very important consideration and I'm very glad you brought it up. I should stick to the rule of either pointing the gun in a safe direction or at what I want to shoot. Something I just want to look at is likely not going to be either of those two. For hunting I have two predator lights and a cap light. I don't use the light on my rifle for looking around, as it would mean pointing the rifle at things I don't intend to shoot &/or not in a safe direction. I use a separate, hand held, light for looking around. I don't know why I didn't think of that in the context of a laser/flashlight combination unit on a pistol. So thank you very much for bringing it up.
Last night I did pick up the LaserLyte unit that is on sale at Cabela's for $70 through Sunday. With my $20 certificate that brought it down to $50, I couldn't resist. I tried some dry fire practice with it and oddly enough I had no issue quickly and directly pointing the laser/dot where I intended and holding it steady. (I think that may be to hand and direction awareness I gained from a side job I had 40 years ago. Maybe some of the ability has lingered.) Anyway, I'll be curious as to how it all goes when I get the chance to get to out and put some ammo through the gun.
Thanks again everyone for your input,
Andrew
Last night I did pick up the LaserLyte unit that is on sale at Cabela's for $70 through Sunday. With my $20 certificate that brought it down to $50, I couldn't resist. I tried some dry fire practice with it and oddly enough I had no issue quickly and directly pointing the laser/dot where I intended and holding it steady. (I think that may be to hand and direction awareness I gained from a side job I had 40 years ago. Maybe some of the ability has lingered.) Anyway, I'll be curious as to how it all goes when I get the chance to get to out and put some ammo through the gun.
Thanks again everyone for your input,
Andrew
Reading all you wrote about the Crimson Trace, last nite I ordered one again, for the 3rd. time. Looks like finely I'll be getting one, bought the last one at this supplier. It will be one of the toys for me, sighted at the same place/offset as it is located on the gun.
So life is good.
So life is good.
SerenityNetworks
New member
It has two numbers on the package. SCV4 and FSL-4. I believe the latter is the actual model number. The SKU is 6 89706 21235 6
Eight_is_enough
New member
I am never without a tac light handy, but I do not want one on my pistol for all the reasons you stated.
I have night sights on my EDC .45 and they look really cool, but the CT laser on it is a vastly superior accessory. If you ever have a hog racing around you in the dark woods slashing up your buddies or dogs the laser will get you on it 10X faster than night sights will, not to mention the high value of being able to keep your eyes focused "out there" instead having to come back to the front sight, which lets you keep track of where the moving target and the dogs all are while you are trying to shoot.
I find that so long as I keep my grip screws the same degree of snugness my CT lasers are remarkably stable and accurate. I know my iron sights are dead on, and every now and then I compare them to the red dot and make sure the dot is still dead on. After hearing all the Internet claptrap about how "unstable" lasers are, I have been very pleasantly surprised. I keep my grip screws snug by putting high-strength thread-locker on my bushings and purple Lok-Tite on the grip screws themselves. The screws easily spin out if I want them out but never vibrate loose from shooting. Purple Lok-Tite is beyond cool -- it is even reusable.
Ditto for the "sighting in distance." The CT laser is about the same distance from the bore axis as the iron sights are. I therefore don't worry any more about "sighting in distance" with the laser than I do with the iron sights.
I have been using CT lasers on my EDC and a couple of range guns for over a year. They work every time I push the button, which is very easy to do -- I just squeeze my middle finger a bit. The only thing that ever goes wrong is you can if not careful get a finger or something else in the way, blocking the laser. That is, however, a training issue. The reliability of the CT is 100% as far as I can tell, unless I were to inundate my gun with water shorting the batteries out or something.
The dot gradually gets less bright as the batteries run down. After a year of daily activation several times a day I recently changed my batteries. The dot was starting to get slightly less bright. It was still very usable, but CT gives you a fresh set once a year so what the heck?
In short, I'm about as worried about my laser failing at the time I really need it as I am my quality factory rounds -- not much.
The bad news is that the CT Master Series lasers I am running cost $300 from the cheapest retailer I can find. Don't tell CT but after once being in a situation where I needed a laser and did not have one, I would not be without one again if they cost $2,300.
If the inexpensive laser you bought isn't everything you hoped it would be, save up your pennies and get a CT.
I have night sights on my EDC .45 and they look really cool, but the CT laser on it is a vastly superior accessory. If you ever have a hog racing around you in the dark woods slashing up your buddies or dogs the laser will get you on it 10X faster than night sights will, not to mention the high value of being able to keep your eyes focused "out there" instead having to come back to the front sight, which lets you keep track of where the moving target and the dogs all are while you are trying to shoot.
I find that so long as I keep my grip screws the same degree of snugness my CT lasers are remarkably stable and accurate. I know my iron sights are dead on, and every now and then I compare them to the red dot and make sure the dot is still dead on. After hearing all the Internet claptrap about how "unstable" lasers are, I have been very pleasantly surprised. I keep my grip screws snug by putting high-strength thread-locker on my bushings and purple Lok-Tite on the grip screws themselves. The screws easily spin out if I want them out but never vibrate loose from shooting. Purple Lok-Tite is beyond cool -- it is even reusable.
Ditto for the "sighting in distance." The CT laser is about the same distance from the bore axis as the iron sights are. I therefore don't worry any more about "sighting in distance" with the laser than I do with the iron sights.
I have been using CT lasers on my EDC and a couple of range guns for over a year. They work every time I push the button, which is very easy to do -- I just squeeze my middle finger a bit. The only thing that ever goes wrong is you can if not careful get a finger or something else in the way, blocking the laser. That is, however, a training issue. The reliability of the CT is 100% as far as I can tell, unless I were to inundate my gun with water shorting the batteries out or something.
The dot gradually gets less bright as the batteries run down. After a year of daily activation several times a day I recently changed my batteries. The dot was starting to get slightly less bright. It was still very usable, but CT gives you a fresh set once a year so what the heck?
In short, I'm about as worried about my laser failing at the time I really need it as I am my quality factory rounds -- not much.
The bad news is that the CT Master Series lasers I am running cost $300 from the cheapest retailer I can find. Don't tell CT but after once being in a situation where I needed a laser and did not have one, I would not be without one again if they cost $2,300.
If the inexpensive laser you bought isn't everything you hoped it would be, save up your pennies and get a CT.