Large loop levers

I THINK the movies that Wayne used the spin cocking trick were Stagecoach, Rio Bravo, POSSIBLY Dark Command, True Grit, maybe the Sons of Katie Elder, and Rooster Cogburn (maybe).

It's been a long time since I've seen Dark Command, Sons of Katie Elder and Rooster Cogburn.
 
I'll check those out. Thanks for the history lesson. I've seen "The Rifleman" episodes a lot but not those movies - least not in a few decades.

The *slightly* larger ones, I can see, for the gloved hand, such as the pic right after my original posting.

But the XL and XXL ones, notsomuch.

For those that say it's faster, I don't see how it's possible to be anything but slower, not faster -- the back of the hand doesn't immediately engage - so it takes a lead time before the lever starts moving, after you start moving your hand, unlike with a small loop. But maybe there's a factor I'm missing.
 
The pic of the rifleman's gun is the first I've seen close up.
The whole lever ,screw and trigger combo doesn't seem too
robust
 
I was thinking it seems like a disaster in the making if you don't keep your finger well away from the trigger when the screw is up.

Ouch!
 
I just watched "El Dorado" this past weekend. That was the one where JW was having paralysis from a bullet in his back. Thus having to spin cock the rifle with his good hand.

I have, by the way, the Rossi 92 .357 with 16 inch barrel - large loop. I ordered a standard lever version from Walmart but the sales guy wrote down the wrong item number.

I have grown quite accustomed to it.
 
I had the large loop on one of my Marlins some time ago.
And it was better than the standard loop in the cold when wearing gloves during deer season. That particular rifle is now gone and I have often thought about buying the large loop for the one Marlin 30-30 that I kept.
 
Bringing up an old thread, two items need clarification. John Wayne's gun in Stagecoach was shortened to below NFA length due to the problems with the swinging method of reloading and arm length. Secondly the Rifleman's gun was not a Winchester but an El Tigre modded for the show. Both accounts are listed in the American Rifleman. Not being a smarty. tom. :cool:
 
I read where John Wayne's loop rifle was a trapper model
supplied with a loop lever, and that the Rifleman used
three rifles in his career : 2 modified Win model 92's and an
El Tigre for when the rifle was "abused" on film.
 
Howdy

the Ithaca Firearms Company was founded in Ithaca New York in 1880. Annie Oakley used one of their shotguns in her exhibition shooting. Ithaca NY is at the southern end of Cayuga Lake in the Finger Lakes district of NY. Cornell University is in Ithaca.

As far as I know, there is no Ithaca tribe of Indians. The Indians who lived in the area were the Seneca, Cayuga, and Onondaga tribes, who were part of the Iroquois Nation.

I can remember Lucas McCord firing his rapid fire rifle on TV. There were two versions, one was a Winchester Model 1892 with a normal finger loop, the other was a '92 that had the big, dumb oversized finger loop. It was just TV, and he was firing blanks.

I know a guy who bought an old '92 with the dumb oversized finger loop. He tried spinning it on his way out of the door of the shop and dropped it on the floor. Other than John Wayne style spin cocking, the big oversized loop is completely useless. It slows down normal operation of the rifle because there is so much slop in the loop.

And yes, I had a cap firing 'lever gun' when I was a kid. It had the little toggle that would trip the trigger every time you worked the lever. As I recall it came with dummy cartridges that you could load through the side gate and they ejected when you worked the lever. It looked pretty much like a Winchester Model '92. Wish I still had it and my Lionel trains.
 
Just going from memory here, but didn't Schwarznegger cock his ancient Winchester lever shotgun using some sort of flipping maneuver in the first Terminator movie........seems he was riding a motorcycle and using one hand as I recall.
 
The Riflemans rifle was a full length Winchester and according to the firearms instructor who taught Conners to handle it, he not only was fast, but accurate with either hand.

From the May 1960 issue of Guns
TV's BIG MAN-FAST RIFLE

By ROOD REDWING
Hollywood Gun Coach
CHUCK CONNORS of TV's record-busting western, "The Rifleman," is a big man in more ways than one. He is the star of a simple yet widely appealing program that is never far from the top of TV ratings and that seems destined to go on forever; he is six feet six, plus hat and boot heels; and the way he handles a Model 92 Winchester lever action has been the biggest enigma in the gun kingdom. What is the secret of his machine-gun speed?

This is the story of that rifle and how he shoots it. And I'm the man who should know. I taught him. But first let's get acquainted with Chuck Connors.Something happened to American men in the late fifties.. They got taller. In the roaring twenties, Wallace Reed at six feet two was the tallest man in the movies. In sports, coaches realized full well the potential value of height, in basketball and elsewhere; but most of them felt that it was an unrealized, maybe unrealizable, potential. Most of
the tall boys, they said, were all length and no breadth, all reach and no rhythm, lacking in speed, stamina, and muscular coordination. Today-what a difference! There is hardly a basketball team in the collegiate circuit that doesn't have at least one star towering six-six or better; football
players run nearly as tall; so do the track and field athletes. And these men are not great in height only. They have the speed, the coordination, the lightning reflexes that match those of their smaller brethren.
Are you wondering what sports have to do with this story? Well, Chuck Connors came to TV-movie stardom by way of professional baseball. I saw Chuck play first 2nd base for the Los Angeles Angels, and I spotted him then as one of the handiest big men I had even seen. He covered a lot of infield, and he could reach anything thrown within ten feet of him. Chuck had still another advantage in baseball. Imagine yourself a catcher, with something this big thundering at you. Block the plate? Not me, brother. He
can have it! I'll tag the small ones. There was something working against him, too, in baseball. He couldn't take the game quite as seriously as some
do. He thought it was fun. There's the story about the time when he hit a homer and covered most of the ground between second and home with a series of front flips and handsprings. That must have been something to see: six feet six of first baseman doing cartwheels around the base
paths.
When Chuck's TV producers cast him as "The Rifleman," they called me in to coach him in rifle handling. Having seen Chuck play baseball, I knew he had the coordination needed for the kind of rifle work the part demanded; and when I saw him handle that Winchester .44 carbine before instruction, I knew he was no novice. He knew the rifle from muzzle to butt-plate, and he knew how to shoot it. But the part demanded that he be able to shoot it as fast as a fast man can handle a revolver-and that's a big order.
It's not only a big order; it takes a big man to fill it. I mean that literally. Chuck's rifle is standard in size, with a 20" barrel. A man needs to be well over six feet to have the arm length to handle that rifle as Connors handles it. (As it happens, there are three real rifle-handling experts among the stars in Hollywood. They are John Wayne, who did his stuff in John Ford's "StageCoach;" Don Murray, whom I taught for the 20th Century Fox picture "From Hell To Texas;" and Chuck Connors, "The Rifleman."
Each of these men is well over six feet three inches, and each, has the manual dexterity of a cat. There is also Steve McQueen, of TV's "Wanted: Dead Or Alive;" but Steve's "rifle" lacks a lot of being standard.) The first thing Chuck said to me after we were introduced was, "Do you think I should handle the rifle right handed-or'left?" Now if I were a baseball coach and a rooky asked me whether he should bat right- or left-handed, maybe I wouldn't be so startled. But guns are, for the most part, right-handed tools. True, this Model 92 lever action Winchester can be worked with either hand, since it's a top ejector, but ... why? Was
Connors left handed ? I tried to remember how he played baseball.
He must have read my thoughts. He said, "I was a switch hitter, remember? At most things, I'm as good with one hand as the
other." Not many people are truly ambidextrous,
but Chuck is. And I mean dexterous-in the sense of speed and skill. Add this to his size and speed and power, and all I say is, if any one of my Indian Chief ancestors had had a tribe of braves like Conners, complete with rifles, we'd still own the country!

Remembering baseball gave Chuck the answer to his own question. He grinned. "So why not be a switch hitter with the rifle, too?
Let's learn Both ways." So that's what we did. It has its values, on
the program. Connors can shoot around the right or left side of any cover, for instance. Did you think our cover picture was reversed? It isn't. Connors shoots either-handed.
The Winchester carbine with the "loop" lever is not an easy rifle to handle. This type of looped lever was first used by John Wayne
in "Stage Coach;" but Wayne's rifle was shortened to a barrel length of well under 18 inches; Chuck's is 20. But the problems didn't bother Connors. He learned as fast as JerryLewis learned to handle a revolver, and Jerry had been my fastest pupil. Chuck's "pilot" show with the rifle was to
be a Four Star western under the Dick Powell banner. According to the script, he was to rapid fire the rifle-really rapid. What we
wanted was nine shots in about 10 seconds and speed like that with the lever action Winchester requires some doing. Slam that lever out and back fast, and you can drive that sharp trigger right through your trigger finger
before you know it. And having a high priced star laid up with a punctured and well bandaged gun hand is not conducive to efficient program production. This had to be avoided.
This is the way to do it. With the trigger finger completely outside the lever, swing the lever forward and back with the other three
fingers. Not until the lever is all the way back should the trigger finger curl in to trigger the shot. Whether fast or slow, this is the way to
do it; but to attain the speed we were seeking, the sequence of movements has to be lightning fast and completely automatic.
Chuck practiced, slowly at first, then speeding it up. Needless to say, he was dry-firing. Later, he used blanks; still later, ball ammo.
The day before the picture was shot, Chuck could fire nine shots faster than you can read this sentence. On silhouette targets, he could
score all hits all of the time, and fairly tight groups most of the time. He's better than that now. He can make groups that would
shame all but the best of hunters. But I was nervous. It's one thing to shoot well in practice; it's something else to remember all you've learned and keep your reflexes working when the cameras are rolling. I needn't have worried. Chuck shot the scene in one "take"-no slips, no stage fright, no "misfires." There's no surer way to make yourself popular with a producer.
After the shooting, Chuck's boss asked me if there was any danger of Chuck being hurt
doing that kind of shooting. I said there definitely was danger, and explained that trigger. through-the-finger business_ The next question
was, "How can the danger be avoided?" The answer was-to make the rifle fire automatically through the action of the lever. I
said, "It can be done, and the Stembridge gunsmiths can do it; But it will cost you." He said, "What's cost? This is insurance. At what
we pay Connors, what will it cost if he's crippled ?"
So we went to work on the rifle. At first glance, you'd say the problem was not a tough one. You'd think that, if the trigger were somehow held back in firing position, the rifle would fire when the lever snapped home. But -it won't work that way. To fire the cartridge, the hammer must snap down on the firing pin. With the trigger held back, this doesn't happen. The hammer eases onto the pin, and there's no impact-no shot. Accepting the fact that the rifle has to be triggered, we had to work out a way to trigger
it with something other than Chuck's finger.
The setscrew installed through
the trigger guard part of the lever can be adjusted to strike and trip the trigger at exactly the right time-provided, of course, that the trigger action is adjusted properly to work right under this kind of triggering. This is a
ticklish job, made more so by the fact that the rifle must be convertible to normal manual operation simply by retracting the screw out of contact with the trigger. But it was done, and the results speak for themselves.

Another problem which looks simple until you try it is that trick Chuck uses of swing. cocking the rifle. Did you think that the looped lever was all that was needed for that maneuver? It isn't. Take an "as is" rifle and swing it as Chuck does, and the rifle is upside down at the very instant the to be loaded cartridge is released to slide into the. chamber. What happens? The cartridge falls in the dirt and you come down with an unloaded rifle.
My drawing shows the solution. A spring loaded plunger is installed, which works in and out above the chamber and acts as a cartridge stop when
the rifle is in its upside down position. It looks simple now, but it didn't look so simple when the pencil first touched the drawing board. Anyway, it works; and now Chuck can rapid fire his .44 Winchester without danger
to his hands, and he can swing-cock and spin cock it without losing a cartridge.
What is swing-cocking, and how is it done? Swing cocking is one of the many ways to cock a rifle with one hand. The rifle is held about waist high. The barrel is allowed to drop, causing the stock to rise out of the
hand, with three fingers holding the lever at what would be the hub of a forward spin. When the rifle is upside down and the well known click reports that the cocking action is completed (third from top) the rifle is
forcibly swung back to its original position horizontal 'and is ready to fire. This cocking maneuver can be done with the regular rectangular lever as well as with the loop.

Another maneuver which Chuck uses at the beginning of every "Rifleman" episode is spin cocking. Here the rifle needs the doughnut loop.
In this picturesque bit of gun legerdemain, the rifle is held so that the forearm is parallel to the ground. Three fingers inside the loop force it down and forward while tilting the barrel upward. The thumb and trigger finger must both be straight The rifle is forced into a back spin, using the loop as a hub. The muzzle of the rifle should pass close to the armpit and move in a circle to the front. Grasp the loop when the flat side comes
back into its original position and, when the stock settles into your hand, you have completed the spin-cocking maneuver. This is very hard to do with a stock rifle with the regular rectangular lever, since only one finger, the ring finger, must spin the rifle; but it can be done.
Connors' rifle can also be fanned. Fanning revolvers is strictly Hollywood stuff; none of the real gunfighters used it in combat, with good reason. The primary reason is that, when you are trying to hold a revolver dead on a target, slapping the gun hard enough to knock the hammer back is not exactly conducive to accurate aim. You can learn to fan with fair
accuracy, with enough practice; but it is a complicated two-handed operation at best, one which can easily go wrong. When you are
shooting for keeps as the old timers were, you use the simple, surefire methods. Fanning the rifle makes at least a little more sense than fanning a sixgun, since it can be held more firmly, is less easy to knock out of
line. First, lever a shell into the chamber. Then ease the hammer down. Now, with trigger held back and the buttstock braced between
forearm and hip, fan the hammer back with the other hand. I don't know what advantage you could possibly gain by this method of shooting-but it's showy, and Hollywood likes showy things.

The things Connors does with his rifle are showy too, but don't let that fool you-Chuck is a rifleman as well as a fancy rifle handler. He fires blanks for TV, naturally; but he can amaze you also with live ammo, whether rapid
fire or with deliberate sighting. He's fast; and he hits what he shoots at-which is the point of all shooting as well as the point of ~
"The Rifleman" stories. ~
 
There were at least two Winchesters used on The Rifleman, along with the El Tigre.

Not to advocate such things, but re the spin-cocking: An unmodified 92 generally won't do it.
My 16-inch Model 94 in .30-30 with the big loop will feed & function perfectly when spin-cocking.

This is NOT something I encourage, but in the unlikely event of an injured left arm I CAN cock & fire the gun by spin-cocking it, one-handed.

There are other methods of using just one arm, but none as fast. :)

LAST DITCH ONLY, but it does work.
Denis
 
Hollywood vs Real Life. IIRC no evidence that anyone "Back Then" created a large loop lever and the observation that it will stress the rifle's innards-like the flipping of a revolver's cylinder, looks nifty on screen but those in the know won't do it. In the 1992 movie Last of the Mohicans all the knives were two feet long so they'd show up on screen better, Chingachook's gunstock club-the same.
 
In the 1992 movie Last of the Mohicans all the knives were two feet long so they'd show up on screen better, Chingachook's gunstock club-the same.
Click to expand...

In movies, reality is irrelevant. It only matters how the lens sees the scene.

As for John Wayne in Stagecoach and the rifle with the large loop cocking lever -

John Ford decided the scene in which the Ringo Kid (John Wayne) is seen for the first time should include the Kid doing something with a gun.

He told Wayne, "Work out something with the rifle." "Or, maybe just a pistol."

Wayne ran through all of the possibilities. All of the western stars could twirl a pistol - so that was out - and the script specified a rifle cocked quickly and with one hand.

Yakima Canutt was a long time friend of Wayne's from working with him in numerous "B" western movies. When Canutt was a boy, he had seen Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. In the show was a stagecoach racing around the arena with a messenger trailing it. The messenger was cocking a rifle with one hand and shooting it.

The audience applauded wildly every time the gun was cocked and fired. Canutt said it had been 30 years ago, but he still remembered it - and more to the point, it had never been done in a movie.

Wayne liked the idea, and went to Ford who also liked it and directed the prop department to make a rifle with a large lever loop so that it could be cocked with one hand.

Wayne tried the gun and found that, because of its length, it would not pass cleanly under his arm. The gun went back to the prop department and they cut a small amount off the end the barrel and redid the front sight.

With the shortened barrel, the move became effortless for Wayne and the first time the Ringo Kid is seen in the movie, he cocks his rifle one handed as the camera dollies in for a close up.

Wayne never "knocked himself out," in practicing with the rifle.

This is directly from Yakima Canutt as told to the author Scott Eyman for the book, John Wayne - The Life and Legend.
 
Last edited:
Any real world experience using thick gloves from members here, versus a regular loop with same gloves?
Click to expand...

In 1982, I purchased a Marlin Model 1895, 45-70. The opening in the lever was so small you could not cock the rifle wearing single weight leather gloves. This made the gun nearly useless in temperatures under 45 degrees if you were going to be outdoors for any length of time.

In 1983, I designed a larger lever loop for the gun and had it fabricated and installed by a friend who owned a machine shop. The gun works perfectly with the larger lever wearing gloves, and still has the larger loop on it today.
 
Cool factor

I could argue that the king's ransom I've spent putting larger loops on my Marlin's and Winchester's is because I have big hands and wear gloves, but the truth of the matter is, for me, that I think they look cool. Ergo, I have them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top