Landed a big S&W. What have I gotten myself into this time?

[feets]

I've been aching for an old 25-2. For some reason those things have been burning a hole in my brain and I HAD to get one. If not, I was going to die or something like that. The only S&W I've shot is my 642 and I really don't consider that a quality revolver.

I'm a very mechanical person. I thinker with cars (built a twin turbo fuel injected 440 powered 65 Plymouth), guns, and almost anything else mechanical. In fact, I have a machine shop at home. Metal and I have a wonderful relationship. The more fiddly bits in an object the more I like it.

Well, I picked up some fiddly bits to play with. Here's what the auction said:

Hello, up for bids is a Smith & Wesson model 25-2 "MODEL 1955" chambered in .45 ACP with a 6 1/2" barrel and a Bushnell scope Chief red dot sight. Target trigger, target hammer, pinned barrel, factory finger groove grips, serial number N6562xx. This revolver has been converted to SINGLE ACTION ONLY. The hammer appears to be an unaltered factory part but I do not know that for a fact, I do not know who did the conversion or if it was shipped from Smith in this configuration. The timing appears to be spot on perfect and the lockup is solid with a very tight cylinder gap, the trigger pull is in the 2-3lb range, the bore is nice but could use a good scrubbing, this IS a USED revolver. The revolver is reportedly very accurate and the empty cases fall out of the chambers without the use of moon clips (none included). The receiver IS drilled and tapped for the Weaver type scope base, the red dot works well. Three day inspection period.

I'm picking it up Saturday afternoon.

I've done a wee bit of work on guns. That includes trigger work on on an M1A, T/C Encore, Vaquero, and Super Redhawk. I've also welded up and refit the bolt lugs on a commercial M1 carbine, rebarreled and did extensive reweld and refitting work to the action of another commercial carbine.
I'm very aware of what a couple thousandths of an inch or a few degrees can mean when it comes to playing with lock work. I'm fairly confidant that I can rebuild something like the N frame lock work assuming it's not totally trashed.

I'm expecting this gun to be a bit high mileage but crusty from sitting for a several years (judging by the old red dot). I'll check out the lock up, end shake, and other quick inspection bits before I drop the cash on the table.
It looks like I might have some fun trying to find a rear sight for the pistol.
What would the most common culprits be on the single action only trigger? Someone pop the sear out of the hammer? Perhaps a home gunsmithing experiment gone wrong has condemned both the hammer and trigger?

I wanted a gun I could take to the range and put eleventy billion rounds through and have a good time. Collector interest and resale mean little to me. I'm not going to beat it up. I take care of my stuff. However, if it gets a little wear on the bluing I'm not going to be too upset.

So, how did I do for $500?

 

[Winchester_73]

So, how did I do for $500?

I think you did fine. Hopefully nothing was damaged with the internals when it was made into SAO. However, a used hammer and trigger .500 target set can be found for less than $100. The rear sight is obviously missing, which costs about $75 or so, but on the other hand, those grips are fairly valuable, $100 or more I have saw them bring on e-Pay. They did not come on the revolver, but are factory N frame combat grips. The red dot isn't worth much but thats obvious. The model itself is somewhat desireable and looks to be in great shape.

Are you planning on making it original again? If so, you may end up right around what a stock one would have cost anyway. At the very least you got a great shooting revolver for a modest price.

 

[feets]

I'm looking to restore the double action function, put an iron sight on it, and start putting holes in stuff.

I went for this one knowing that the ugly bits would keep the collectors and Kool Aid drinkers away. When I get a gun, it's for shooting, not sitting in a case looking pretty.


I was looking at 625s for a long time but moved to the 25-2 a couple months ago. I don't compete and certainly don't plan on carrying this thing. I want an accurate revolver. I'd also like to find out how I get along with the over-hyped S&W trigger pull.

 

[MrBorland]

The SAO conversion could've been done simply by removing the DA sear, pin & spring. A lighter hammer reduces lock time, and jars the muzzle a little less upon hammer strike, so I imagine it was done to accurize the gun a bit. At any rate, if you're lucky, no further mods to the trigger & hammer were made, and you'll only need to replace the 3 lost fiddly bits. You (or a gunsmith) will likely need to fit the DA sear, too. Might as well smooth & polish all the innards while you're in there.

$500? Yeah, as Winchester_73 said, it's a desirable gun, you're handy, and doesn't need anything made of unobtainium to get right, so you did ok. Range report soon, eh?

 

[Zhillsauditor]

S&Ws are just plain fun to work on. Any replacement parts you may need are out there. I recommend getting the S&W Shop Manual by Kuhnhousen (sp?).

That being said, I think you just did okay. While it is a desirable gun, it has been heavily modified, and is showing a lot of wear. You will be able to get your money out of it, but I would not count on recovering any money you have to put into it.

Which is fine, as you will have a lot of fun working on it and shooting it.

 

[Chesster]

I'd restore the rear sight and leave the SA alone as I would prefer it, like a Ruger BH with quick reloading time.

 

[BlueTrain]

K-38s were available as single-action only for a while, though I don't know when, and I expect they all came with target hammer and trigger. I don't know about the other so-called target revolvers. Some models, here referring to both the K-frame and N-frame target models, could be order with the wide hammer and trigger but apparently it was standard on some, including the Model 25 and 26, but not not the Model 25, at least at an instant in time. It's possible it was done at the factory.

 

[Winchester_73]

K-38s were available as single-action only for a while, though I don't know when, and I expect they all came with target hammer and trigger

Early 60s IIRC.

it was standard on some, including the Model 25 and 26, but not not the Model 25, at least at an instant in time. It's possible it was done at the factory.

S&W model 26s are pretty rare. 45 cal (acp or colt) target with a lightweight barrel (25 had a heavy barrel). I'm guessin the quote above is a bit of a typo, but:

This gun came with that TT and TH. It was standard on the model 24, 25, 29 and 57. For 27s, it became standard after 1975. If I had to guess, model 23s had TT and TH non-standard as did the model 28, meaning you had to order them, and then it came that way. It may have been standard on the model 26 BUT they are pretty darn hard to find as is a model 23.

 

[BlueTrain]

I took that information from a 1962 catalog (fifty years ago). It actually isn't clear the way the page is laid out but the 1955 Model 25 (.45 ACP) had heavy target barrel, target grip, tangs and target trigger grooved, target hammer. Then it lists the 1950 Model 24 (.44 Special), which did not have any of the target features (hammer, trigger or stocks). Following that was the 1950 Model 25, .45 ACP, "same as above," which I now take to mean same as the Model 24 and which also had a standard barrel. I misread the listing but it also said target hammers, target stocks and target triggers were available for "Masterpiece Target" revolvers and also "Large Frame Target Revolvers." They were available as parts or as original equipment for special order.

While they are highly desirable today, I don't think they sold in great numbers when they were introduced, probably because the .45 automatic was beginning to be more popular for target shooting.

The 38/44 Ourdoorsman Model 23 was still available then. I'll bet it was rare, too.

 

[Winchester_73]

Then it lists the 1950 Model 24 (.44 Special), which did not have any of the target features (hammer, trigger or stocks).

The model "24" you speak of was called such, or called a model of 1950 44 special target or something? I ask because the model 21, fixed sight 44 special would also not have any of the target features because it was not intended to. I'm a lil surprised that the 44 special target did not have any target features as standard.

 

[BlueTrain]

I'm just reading it out of the catalog but that was only true the day it was printed.

I owned both a 4-inch and 6 1/2 inch Model 624, which is described in the catalog as a 1985 target model. The 4-inch barrel version came with "smooth combat," the other serrated target and also a target hammer. The 4-inch again had a "semi-target" hammer. The Model 25 (the Model 24 wasn't being offered at that time) had the same combination of Target Hammer and Trigger for all barrel lengths and all of these revolvers came only with the target stocks. This later catalog is probably 20 years old at least. By that time all of the fixed sighted N-frames and the .38/44 models were gone, yet there were all kinds of variations yet to come.

I have no explanation of why guns are offered with the combination of features the way they are, only that they are guessing what will sell. So ultimately, what can be called "standard" is only good for as long as it lasts.

 

[feets]

The gun just made it home.

If you cover up the red dot this gun is gorgeous! The finish is easily 98%. The single action only issue is a missing sear. They did reinstall the sear pin so it was intentional work. The screws are not buggered up from a hack playing around inside the gun.
That front sight is amusing. Someone painted the back of the blade a rather dark red. That must not have been good enough so they stuck a tritium dot on there. What looks like a brass bead glows nicely in a dark room. I guess it'll still work as a bead or I can pop it off.
The stocks are in mint condition with nicely matching grain at the bottom.

Mechanically, it checks out. The gap at the cylinder runs .008 to .004 so there's .004 of travel. There's not much more than that for end shake. The ejector rod is bent .015 by a quick and dirty measurement. There is no gritty feel or catches in the trigger. Both the hammer and trigger show moderate rub marks on their right sides. As is common, the cylinders were bored to .456" so it will probably be a jacketed bullet gun.
The forcing cone is clean. The bore is bright with clean sharp rifling.

I'll open it up for a detailed inspection tonight and we'll probably take it for a test drive in the morning.

So far, I'm happy.


Winchester73, you seem to know quite a bit. Would you know where I can find a rear sight assembly with the correct blade?

 

[Winchester_73]

Would you know where I can find a rear sight assembly with the correct blade?

You could look on ebay and gunbroker. Also try jack first, popperts, numrich, etc. The easiest thing might be to post a WTB ad on this forum and the S&W forum. Its important to remember that the N frame assembly is longer than a K/L or a J frame assembly. Sometimes a seller won't know which they have. The N frame rear sight assembly is 2.86 in aka 72.9 mm long. If you came across one that is shorter, its for a smaller frame. Also, if the top of the assembly is smooth, (without grooves which run lengthwise on the top of the assembly) then its for a model 28. You also may need to buy a rear right blade because you need the correct height for the cal and barrel length.

I found this chart. This was a question I posted to the S&W forum actually:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/225017-sight-blade-help-126-146-160-height-model-purpose.html

For the 25, 45 acp, it shows a height of 0.146 in. If you had the wrong one, adjusting the sights could become more difficult esp for longer shots. S&W also explained to me one day that the wrong height could also have you off the paper for close shots, like inside 15 yds. They carry the correct sight blades if you bought an assembly with a short or to tall of a blade. Also, go for the white outline instead of the standard black. I have one without the white outline, and I don't like it.

 

[Winchester_73]

If you cover up the red dot this gun is gorgeous! The finish is easily 98%

+1 on that. I thought so from the limited amount of photos. Some other responder said the gun was "showing a lot of wear" but I'm not sure which photos he was looking at.

 

[Zhillsauditor]

I was looking at the muzzle, and I was thinking about resale value.

This thread encouraged me to take out the 625 to the range this morning. I love those N-frame smiths. If I were a better shot, I could be dangerous with that gun.

 

[feets]

Range report!

I took the 25-2 for a test drive this morning. It was not a good morning for me. For some reason, it took me 8 rounds to get on the right half of the paper with my trusty old Vaquero. This did not bode well.
After running through 28 rounds of 45 Colt (Long or not) and making a little over half of them count, I picked up my Kimber.
Things got a little better. I was able to keep them inside 4" at 15 yards. That's horribly embarrassing but much better than I ran with my Vaquero. I just wasn't there today.
My friend was able to print nice tight groups with both guns but he's a competition shooter and I'd kick him in the shin if he scattered shots like I was doing today.

I finally dug out the big Smith and hoped I'd do it some justice. The battery in the prehistoric red dot was really weak. What seemed to be a bright dot indoors was barely visible at the range despite being on it's highest setting.

At 15 yards my first four shots went into one ragged hole. Then I shanked the next two by a little over an inch.
Kirk was able to run the gun well under 2 inches at 15 yards with any of the 4 loads we had on hand.

This looks to be a sweet shooter.

I just sucked behind the trigger today.

 

[rodfac]

Nice revolver, Feets, you're going to like it...tho it'll hang heavy on your gun belt for sure. You perked my interest and I took some pics of my old one, purchased new 20+ years ago, complete with the mahogany case and all accoutrements. I'll not depress you by stating the price, but let's say it's appreciated over the years. Before someone gigs me on the stocks, they're not the originals...I've got those stored away...yes, I did strip that glossy S&W finish on the replacements...

Checking Jinks, book on S&W models, shows that it came out in ta da, 1955, and was introduced at the Tampa Mid-Winter Pistol Championships. At that point it was still known as the .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1955. It came standard with Target stocks, hammer, and trigger, as well as a heavier barrel for steadiness on the firing line. The Model 25 designation came in 1957.

Changes to the lock work and screw numbers came over the years, the same as the .44 Special, Model 24. All changes listed by Jinks were complete by 1961 with a change to the cylinder stop, and the elimination of the screw in the front of the trigger guard...these last two mods earned it the designation M25-2. (See Jinks pgs. 199, 207, and 208.)

For my taste, the big S&W Target stocks are a might overwhelming, and I find a thinner pair better for my use. The gun is truly accurate and does well with either .45 ACP brass, with or without half moon clips, or with the Auto-Rim brass. I find no difference in accuracy with any of the above and can mix and match them in the cylinder with no effect on groups. The loads listed below, when used without half moon clips, will flick out of the cylinder with a finger nail...nice if you don't like the clips.

That post front sight makes carrying it in a leather holster a bit frustrating as well...it picks up leather lint and you'll find yourself brushing off the front sight to get a decent sight picture. On your gun, you said they may have installed a tritium dot...could be, or it could be a "call gold bead" which they've painted over. S&W offered it as an option, and it may still be available. The bead stuck out at the rear of the post by half its diameter and was useful in dim light. It's a good sight and one that you can blacken with a wooden match without fear that you'll wreck it. As to the missing rear sight, S&W will probably sell you one...give 'em a call...and they'll make sure it's got the right height blade on it too.

My gun is DA/SA as desired, and I find no mention in Jinks of a standard, SA only gun...not to say that they didn't do that mod at the factory on order. Smith did offer a lot back in the day...I'd opine that someone removed the DA function at some point...

Mine is not used often, maybe more now that you've stirred me up with your post. I've killed one deer with it, using 200 gr truncated wad cutters I had on hand at the time, and at standard velocity, ie. 750-800 fps. That old doe had been hit by a car and was dragging a broken leg..the bone protruding from the break...killing her was an act of mercy...she was laying in a small creek, the wound covered in flies...the gullet passed through her frontal skull plate and well into the neck...plenty of penetration in spite of the target velocity.

Here are some loads that work well for me....incidentally, the ones in .45 ACP brass work as well in my 1911's.

.45 Auto-Rim brass: Missouri Bullets 200 gr TWC, 5.3 gr of HP38...1.1" (12 rounds in this group...) at 25 yds, sitting.
.45 ACP brass: Winchester 230 FMJ, 5.2 gr Win 231...1.25" at 25 yds sitting.
.45 ACP brass: Better Bullets 200 gr TWC, 5.0 gr Win 231 (chrono'd at 834 fps)...3/4" at 25 yds sitting.​

And finally, here are some pics...showing the sight, cylinder etc. I do have add'l loads for it, if you're interested..PM me with any questions...

Best Regards, Rod

 

[DFrame]

You did real well on your gun. The 25-2 is probably the finest gun S&W ever made. With it's low pressure 45acp round it will outlast you and likely your grandchildren. Great gun.

 

[feets]

Rodfac, I appreciate the info. Someone removed the DA sear on my gun. The pin is there but the sear and spring are gone. I have new parts on order.
The front sight is indeed a tritium dot stuck to the blade. It glows in a dark room.
I had s&w's contact info open when I read this thread. Hopefully they will have a sight at a reasonable price.

 

[kraigwy]

I had a Model 25 one time. Bought it new w/box and all. Then sent it to S&W and had a second cylinder made, now its a 45 ACP or 45 LC.

Then some dumb %$#@%& traded it off. The same SOB traded a S&W 547 at the same time.

Regret hit me a short time later and that was the last gun I traded or sold.

I repented.