Spats McGee
Administrator
Yes, that's the case. I think it was Wickard v. Filburn.
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lack of serial number
- Thread starter hartcreek
- Start date
I figured an update was needed.
I dropped the frame off at my county sheriff department main office on Monday. I handed the frame to the uniformed officer manning the counter and she gave me a blank look then asked why are you turning this in. She had it in her hand so I said look at the serial number. Another blank look followed and I said "inside the grip see the serial number has been obliterated." Another blank look from her so I explained that it was a federal felony to remove the serial number and by federal law it had to be turned in. Oh was her reply. She then asked for my name and phone number and wrote them both on a post it note for the detective in case he needed to contact me.
She did not even ask for identification......good grief. I expected that I would have to fill out some form as a minimum. If this is how my local sheriff department acts when they recieve what is obviously a crime gun I really have to wonder how the rest of the department is run.
I dropped the frame off at my county sheriff department main office on Monday. I handed the frame to the uniformed officer manning the counter and she gave me a blank look then asked why are you turning this in. She had it in her hand so I said look at the serial number. Another blank look followed and I said "inside the grip see the serial number has been obliterated." Another blank look from her so I explained that it was a federal felony to remove the serial number and by federal law it had to be turned in. Oh was her reply. She then asked for my name and phone number and wrote them both on a post it note for the detective in case he needed to contact me.
She did not even ask for identification......good grief. I expected that I would have to fill out some form as a minimum. If this is how my local sheriff department acts when they recieve what is obviously a crime gun I really have to wonder how the rest of the department is run.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Deleted by Aguila Blanca -- remedial reading class begins in April.
Careful here:
I was contacted by the DA, regarding a case where someone was being charged for possession of a firearm that "had the serial number removed". They wanted me to see if I could bring back the serial number. Which is possible in many cases.
I got the gun only to find out that it was a Remington Model 721. Most Model 721s don't have serial numbers. I've only seen one that doesn't.
I explained this to the DA telling him he needs to dismiss the charges, when did happen and the rifle was returned to its owner.
DA's, Prosecutors and most lawyers don't know diddlie squat about guns.
I have several older guns without serial numbers, A model 721 is one, a Savage 24D is another. They didn't come from the factory with serial numbers and are perfectly legal. Even, as in the case of the 721 some did have serial numbers.
Another problem the same serial number may be used on multiple guns.
The Mauser comes to mind. I was contacted by a defense attorney because his client was being charged possession of a stolen firearm. The client swore that the rifle in question was given to him by his father who brought it back from WWII.
I don't know if the story of the bring back was true, but I do know Mauser's may in fact have duplicate serial numbers.
When the Army contract with different companies to build guns, they issue them a block of serial numbers to use.
Often Germany didn't. The contracted with companies to build mauser and they (not always) came up with their own serial numbers.
I presented my findings to the DA and again the case was dismissed.
The above two cases may be rare, but they do occur. If pays to find an expert before caving.
I don't mean a gun nut, I mean an person that has been Accepted as an Expert in your court system. That takes a bit to do, as you're raked over the coals by the defense and DAs, to get the Court to recognize one as an expert.
If you run into problems, FIND ONE because as I said, DAs, prosecutors and most lawyers don't know.
I was contacted by the DA, regarding a case where someone was being charged for possession of a firearm that "had the serial number removed". They wanted me to see if I could bring back the serial number. Which is possible in many cases.
I got the gun only to find out that it was a Remington Model 721. Most Model 721s don't have serial numbers. I've only seen one that doesn't.
I explained this to the DA telling him he needs to dismiss the charges, when did happen and the rifle was returned to its owner.
DA's, Prosecutors and most lawyers don't know diddlie squat about guns.
I have several older guns without serial numbers, A model 721 is one, a Savage 24D is another. They didn't come from the factory with serial numbers and are perfectly legal. Even, as in the case of the 721 some did have serial numbers.
Another problem the same serial number may be used on multiple guns.
The Mauser comes to mind. I was contacted by a defense attorney because his client was being charged possession of a stolen firearm. The client swore that the rifle in question was given to him by his father who brought it back from WWII.
I don't know if the story of the bring back was true, but I do know Mauser's may in fact have duplicate serial numbers.
When the Army contract with different companies to build guns, they issue them a block of serial numbers to use.
Often Germany didn't. The contracted with companies to build mauser and they (not always) came up with their own serial numbers.
I presented my findings to the DA and again the case was dismissed.
The above two cases may be rare, but they do occur. If pays to find an expert before caving.
I don't mean a gun nut, I mean an person that has been Accepted as an Expert in your court system. That takes a bit to do, as you're raked over the coals by the defense and DAs, to get the Court to recognize one as an expert.
If you run into problems, FIND ONE because as I said, DAs, prosecutors and most lawyers don't know.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
If I remember correctly, there was a block of duplicate serial numbers assigned to M1911A1s during WW2. I don't recall where the overlap occurred -- maybe Colt and Remington-Rand?kraigwy said:The above two cases may be rare, but they do occur. If pays to find an expert before caving.
And, of course, everyone knows that ALL M1911A1s are "Colts" -- even if they were made by Remington-Rand, United Switch and Signal, or even Argentina.
Lugers and others had serial numbers that ran in blocks, and were repeated with a suffix or prefix letters during the year. And they started over again the next year.
So, serial number alone is not quite enough for positive identification for some guns. DWM 1936 Luger ser#1234 and DWM 1937 Luger ser# 1234 are different guns, but might NOT be listed differently in registration or police records. Both guns might simply be listed as "Luger ser#1234"
I recall hearing about one fellow who had a legal hassle because of the same serial# on two different S&W .38s. They were different models, with different barrel lengths, both ".38 cal". One was reported stolen (which it had been) and the other was the gun the guy had, which the police THOUGHT was the stolen gun, because it was a S&W .38 with the reported serial number.
Things did eventually get cleared up, as I recall, but this kind of thing happens sometimes, maybe more often than we know.
So, serial number alone is not quite enough for positive identification for some guns. DWM 1936 Luger ser#1234 and DWM 1937 Luger ser# 1234 are different guns, but might NOT be listed differently in registration or police records. Both guns might simply be listed as "Luger ser#1234"
I recall hearing about one fellow who had a legal hassle because of the same serial# on two different S&W .38s. They were different models, with different barrel lengths, both ".38 cal". One was reported stolen (which it had been) and the other was the gun the guy had, which the police THOUGHT was the stolen gun, because it was a S&W .38 with the reported serial number.
Things did eventually get cleared up, as I recall, but this kind of thing happens sometimes, maybe more often than we know.
MemphisJim
New member
I have similar issues with a Winchester Model 47. From '48 through the end of '51 (when he was recalled to the Air Force for Korea duty as part of Truman's reserve call-up; he stayed in for a career because flying jet fighters was just "too much fun"), Dad was a factory rep for Winchester. For Christmas of '49, he made two 47s into "youth" rifles as Christmas presents for his two sons, 6-y-o me and brother, a year younger. The 47 was a promotionally priced (read: cheap, about $20) single shot bolt action rifle with a feature that took it to "Safe" when the bolt was opened. Sixty-some-odd years later the rifles are still in the family and being distributed to our grandchildren. Production of the 47 ended with some 44,000 examples made well before the '68 law. At least one gunsmith wouldn't even do any basic research and refused to let it into his shop for lack of a S/N. Others who've seen it comment on its excellent condition and flawless bore. God only knows how many bricks of Winchester and Western have been down the pipe but it was always meticulously maintained.
The cheaper "hardware store" guns, rifles shotguns, and even pistols often did not have serial numbers or even maker's names. They might have the store brand name, but some didn't even do that.
My Grandfather had a bolt action .410, tube mag fed. The only markings on the gun anywhere were "2 1/2 & 3 in" on the barrel. Legal and normal in the day, and still legal today, if rare.
I had a Siamese Mauser, converted to .45-70. No serial number. Some Asian characters on the action, but no numbers. It had to go to a shop for some ejector work.
The shop didn't bat an eye. (this was in the late 80s). They simply took the gun in, and in the paper work blocks for serial#s, they wrote "no ser #" all good and legal.
My Grandfather had a bolt action .410, tube mag fed. The only markings on the gun anywhere were "2 1/2 & 3 in" on the barrel. Legal and normal in the day, and still legal today, if rare.
I had a Siamese Mauser, converted to .45-70. No serial number. Some Asian characters on the action, but no numbers. It had to go to a shop for some ejector work.
The shop didn't bat an eye. (this was in the late 80s). They simply took the gun in, and in the paper work blocks for serial#s, they wrote "no ser #" all good and legal.