Kyle Rittenhouse trial set for early November .

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“ Mr. Rittenhouse could have easily avoided the venue he was in altogether. “

Yes, lots of things could be avoid, but that doesn't mean they have to be avoided.

You are absolutely correct and the consequences thereof may not be avoided either as Mr. Rittenhouse is discovering now.
 
Lima Oscar 7 said:
Quote:

“ Mr. Rittenhouse could have easily avoided the venue he was in altogether. “

Yes, lots of things could be avoid, but that doesn't mean they have to be avoided.

You are absolutely correct and the consequences thereof may not be avoided either as Mr. Rittenhouse is discovering now.
Unfortunately, the tragedy and the travesty in this is that Kyle Rittenhouse didn't go there that night with the intention of being part of the problem, he went there with the intention of being part of the solution. As has been pointed out, prior to the first attack on him he helped several people, administered first aid, and wasn't being a threat to anyone.

The fact that he was attacked -- violently -- and has now been arrested and charged for defending himself is further proof of the old adage, "No good deed shall go unpunished."
 
You are absolutely correct and the consequences thereof may not be avoided either as Mr. Rittenhouse is discovering now.
There's no question that actions have consequences.

The problem comes when it's stated or implied that because unwise decisions led to an situation, that actions taken in that situation by the person who made those decisions are therefore illegal, or likely to be illegal.

If a person walks home alone through a crime-ridden neighborhood late at night and is victimized and ends up killing the attacker, the fact that the initial decision was unwise and the consequences were perhaps predictable, doesn't have any bearing on the legality of the attacker's death. The legality of that death will be determined based on the specific circumstances of the actual interaction between the person and the attacker.

The fact that the person chose to do something stupid that resulted in an interaction that could have been avoided by making a different decision is irrelevant unless the specific interaction was instigated by the person. For example, if someone intentionally begins a confrontation with another person (as opposed to just being somewhere it wasn't smart to be) then that fact could possibly be relevant. It won't insure that the person starting the confrontation is in the wrong regardless of how things play out, but it could be a factor.

In fact, a person can even be breaking a law (sort of the ultimate unwise decision) and still have the legal right to self-defense, depending on the circumstances.
The use of a firearm in self defense should only take place when all other options are off the table.
Incorrect. The law does not require a person to exhaust all other options before resorting to deadly force. It only requires a person to exhaust all other REASONABLE options.
All options were not off the table. The young man should have not been there in the first place much less with a firearm.
These two statements do not go together.

The fact that he should or shouldn't have been there and perhaps shouldn't have possessed the firearm doesn't automatically mean he had other reasonable options available to him once he was actually in the situation.

You can't keep going back and back and back until you find a step that the person could have avoided and say that by taking that step they now bear the responsibility for everything that happens thereafter. This would be like saying that if you have a wreck, it's automatically your fault for deciding to go to the grocery store--because if you had stayed home the wreck wouldn't have happened. Or like saying that because a driver cut someone else off in traffic, they are guilty of homicide for the death of a passenger who was shot by another driver in the resulting road rage incident.

I'm a huge fan of avoidance as a valid self-defense strategy. It's way simpler and cheaper and safer than shooting it out. If I had been Kyle, I wouldn't have gone to the riots. If I had been Kyle's parents I wouldn't have allowed him to go to the riots. If I had been a friend, I would have advised him not to go to the riots.

But I absolutely do not agree with the implication that by going, he gave up the right to self-defense. That is simply not correct.
 
How far back do you play the "blame game"??

because the same limited logic applies no matter how far back you care to go.


If he hadn't been born it wouldn't have happened...
if his parents hadn't been born....and so on back to the beginning, all equally true and all equally MEANINGLESS.
 
You are absolutely correct and the consequences thereof may not be avoided either as Mr. Rittenhouse is discovering now.

Yes, due process can be an ordeal, but it is part of the process set forth by law. Strangely, a lot of people don't go through it after using lethal force to help another or to protect themselves. As such, not all consequences will involve the court system.

Everything involves risk and will have some sort of consequences, but not all consequences are bad or negative.

You could argue that literally hundreds (if not thousands) of people made very poor decisions in volunteering for the Twin Towers rescue effort, coming in from all over the country to help, not to mention all those there occupationally. All of the volunteers could have easily avoided the situation, right? "The entire situation was a manure show and bad things happen in manure shows." Now, hundreds of volunteers are suffering the ill effects in various forms of having been exposed to quite a few toxic elements that made up the Twin Towers. They chose to be there...and now there are consequences.

If we, as society, stop helping out our fellow members of society during crises, then what is the point of having a society? Sometimes, the immediacy of need outweighs the concern for possible future negative consequences.
 
Leftists and others seeking to put America on its knees want there to be no such thing as self-defense. They want their marauding hordes to be able to assault conservatives at will with you being able to do nothing to stop it.

Kyle did absolutely nothing wrong. If I am on the ground after trying to flee from you, and you are trying to bash me in the head with a skateboard, I consider that an imminent threat of death or serious physical harm, and it is certainly reasonable to use deadly force to stop it.

When the next guy comes at me with a drawn pistol, clearly visible in the photo, that is an even greater threat.

Kyle should not have been prosecuted. There is almost no chance the state will be able to find a jury that will vote unanimously to convict. They are not going to get a conviction. They may get a hung jury or two, but they will never get 12 to say "guilty."

 
In the Trevon Martin/Zimmeman case, IMO,Zimmerman made serious mistakes.I don't know enough information to say for sure whether he should have paid any attention to Trevon Martin at all.
I recognize the possibility Zimmerman may have been playing vigilante for racial reasons. I said "possibility" recognizing I do not know.

Imo,the MOST Zimmerman MiGHT have been justified in doing is calling the police and reporting an unrecognized person in the neighborhood. Being Black is not "Probable Cause"

IMO,it IS possible Zimmerman's "thought process" was "I'm armed,he is Black,and this is thrilling"

Which,IMO,is stupid and unjustifiable.

OK,those of you who think Kyle Rittenhouse "should not have been there" is a reason to prosecute him, compare the cases.

So Trevon Martin became provoked that Zimmerman was bird dogging him.
He may have become enraged because once again,he was being hassled for being Black. I don't know,but its possible.

I any case,there was a fight.Trevon Martin was unarmed. But he was better at fighting.He was on top,giving Zimmerman a "Ground and Pound"

Zimmerman's head was being slammed into the sidewalk. He feared becoming unconscious. He feared Martin would discover the gun and kill him.

Zimmerman shot Martin and killed him. He was found "not guilty" in court by reason of self defense.

It just does not matter If I think Zimmerman should not have been there in the first place.

In the moment of Gravest Extreme ,he used deadly force to defend himself.

So ,looking at that trial and verdict,how can you say Kyle Rittenhouse is a slam dunk "He is guilty because I think he should not have been there"?
 
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The interesting argument I’ve ran through my head is .... what if the first shooting which seems to have the most gray area surrounding it , is deemed unjustified ? Does that change the narrative of the above photo or either of the “self defense” action after that first incounter ?

My thought is “if” the first altercation is deemed KR’s fault . Well then instead of a angry mob trying to “get/harm” a poor citizen there to help . It can be argued they are there trying to catch a murderer who just killed a fellow citizen. Doesn’t the same argument now apply to skateboard and Glock guy ? They are just being good citizens trying to stop a killer from killing more ?
 
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I'm going to do what a lot of people should probably do.

Say this:

"I just don't have enough factual information to offer an opinion."
 
HiBC

I agree the Zimmerman case is not comparable however I believe Zimmerman was guilty , of what specifically I'm not sure . I don't believe the jury was aloud to consider lesser charges like negligent homicide or manslaughter . IMO Trevon was literally doing nothing wrong so any escalation was caused by Zimmerman's confrontation .

It comes down to what is Kyle charged with . I don't know if they have changed anything ( added or reduced charges ) but if I recall KR was originally charged with 2nd degree murder which I believe Zimmerman was as well . In both cases I don't see how a jury gets to second degree murder .
 
Its not uncommon ,when there is a wreck, that both drivers messed up at the same time.
Often one driver who is paying attention can avoid the wreck.

I have expressed my bias that Zimmerman played a large part in the setup of his incident with Trevon Martin.
But lets not overlook one important factor. Zimmerman did not appear to be in great physical condition. I suspect Trevon Martin had the agility and stamina to keep out of Zimmerman's reach. I don't think Zimmerman could run down and capture Trevon Martin. Trevon Martin likely could have avoided the physical altercation.

I was born in Wisconsin. I have not seen it since I was a kid, Google Earth photos show my home town has not changed much. Fox River/Lake Winnebago area

I've been to the Pacific Northwest. Portland/Seattle/Tacoma...Beautiful places. I'm a landlocked guy,I enjoy the beaches,etc.Low tide play puddles,critters...
Based on my perceptions of what has happened over the last few years,I will avoid travel to my Wisconsin birthplace just as I will avoid Portland and Sea/Tac. And I will avoid cartel controlled Mexico,even though I've had a wonderful time down in the Baja penninsula.

I can't expect the Police to keep the streets reasonably safe. While I agree with the sentiment "The Lives of Black People Matter",I do NOT support the organization "BLM" or ANTIFA.

The vision of being encircled and attacked by groups of hyenas dressed in black with masked faces inspires me to thoughts I prefer not to dwell on. I recognize I could very well become in Kyle Rittenhouse's position.Or worse. I could be killed.

So I don't go. Is that wisdom or cowardice? I don't know. I feel no need to prove anything. I may "bucket list" those places. But certainly not because I'm looking for adrenaline rushes.

I might want to catch a Wisconsin walleye. Play on a low tide Oregon beach.
Eat cheese or seafood.

I do not want to walk around in a John Wick / Clint Eastwood state of mind.
 
The coverage of the Zimmerman case was a true fecal storm of distortions, misrepresentations and some outright lies.

However, no where do I recall either side ever making the claim that Zimmerman attacked Martin physically. We can debate all the things that went before and what amount of influence they had on the attack, but its clear that Martin physically attacked Zimmerman.

And, fwiw, pounding someone's head into the pavement is NOT a harmless act. It can (and has) killed people. It is a deadly assault. To me, on that basis alone deadly force in self defense was justified.

In the current matter, the court will decide as they are the final legal step, but in my opinion pointing a gun at someone is not a friendly act, and I think waiting until they shoot in order to determine if they are a deadly threat could be the last choice you ever make. I think that's a rather poor idea, personally.
 
The one thing I remember is the prosecutor in the Kyle Rittenhouse case had stated on hid Facebook page that he prosecuted ALL self defense cases. It is also noted that he quickly removed it. I've seen it and I'm sure many others have seen it. It makes me believe there is extreme prejudice on in this case on the part of the prosecutor.

Paul B.
 
Metal God said:
I agree the Zimmerman case is not comparable however I believe Zimmerman was guilty , of what specifically I'm not sure . I don't believe the jury was aloud to consider lesser charges like negligent homicide or manslaughter . IMO Trevon was literally doing nothing wrong so any escalation was caused by Zimmerman's confrontation .
Except that Zimmerman didn't "confront" Martin. Zimmerman was attempting to trail and observe Martin, but he lost sight of him and was heading back to his car. Martin circled around and ambushed Zimmerman. Any escalation or confrontation was initiated solely by Martin.

In the Rittenhouse case, I don't remember the details of the first shooting. That said, if you want to talk about choices, skateboard dude and handgun dude made conscious choices to approach and attack a person who was carrying a rifle. If you want to discuss poor choices and consequences ... there's your opportunity.
 
There are now jurisdictions in America where the just will be punished and the unjust will go unpunished for political expediency. We are in a WROL environment in certain areas as we have all witnessed for going on two years. Do I think Mr. Rittenhouse had noble intentions? Ablsolutely. Do I think should even be on trial? Heck no! Kyle Rittenhouse did what he did in an unjust jurisdiction. In just areas, he would not be on trial right now. My wish is he will come through this unscathed. My gut tells me he’s headed to prison. We can learn from this tragedy. We are in uncharted territory in this nation. There are some parts of this country where you better do everything you can to avoid the use of lethal force even when it is clear you are fully justified. Up is down. Down is up. Right is wrong. Wrong is right. If he does go to prison, we can work to elect a sane President who will see this for what it is and pardon him.
 
Leftists and others seeking to put America on its knees want there to be no such thing as self-defense. They want their marauding hordes to be able to assault conservatives at will with you being able to do nothing to stop it.

Kyle did absolutely nothing wrong. If I am on the ground after trying to flee from you, and you are trying to bash me in the head with a skateboard, I consider that an imminent threat of death or serious physical harm, and it is certainly reasonable to use deadly force to stop it.

When the next guy comes at me with a drawn pistol, clearly visible in the photo, that is an even greater threat.

Kyle should not have been prosecuted. There is almost no chance the state will be able to find a jury that will vote unanimously to convict. They are not going to get a conviction. They may get a hung jury or two, but they will never get 12 to say "guilty."

Spot on Eight is Enough—-well said!
 
Just a reminder: This discussion area is "Law and Civil Rights." How the Rittenhouse case plays out with respect to the applicable laws is open for discussion. If the discussion wanders into politics, we'll have to close the discussion.
 
A_B said:
if you want to talk about choices, skateboard dude and handgun dude made conscious choices to approach
and attack a person who was carrying a rifle. If you want to discuss poor choices and consequences ..
There in a nutshell is the problem.
We have an entire segment of society now convinced there not only are no consequences, but there should be no consequences ...for them.

At that point free-for-all in a social structure unable to comprehend what is happening to them.
 
Thank God we still have some semblance of laws and justice. Otherwise we can just paint whatever color of justification we want to endorse murder.
 
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