andrewstorm
Moderator
can anyone tell me ,with any reasonable degree of certainty,the potential leagel ramifications of installing this drop in cylinder,thus creating a cartridge gun out of a black powder.
krist conversion 45colt ruger old army michigan lawfull?
- Thread starter andrewstorm
- Start date
1. are you allowed to possess handguns or long guns in the state of michigan?
2. did you purchase it and register it with the state when you purchased it? (purchase laws have been bouncing around from area to area in the state for some reason in the last year or so)
3. if you modify the reciever/recoil shield to allow the loading of metalic cartridges through the breach end of the cylinder, like on a colt saa, then its considered to be modified to a cartridge gun under federal atf guidelines.
4. if you intend to use it during muzzleloading only seasons, you CANNOT use the drop in cartridge cylinder as that would be an offense called "hunting out of season" and would in theory give you a large number of fines and some jail time.
2. did you purchase it and register it with the state when you purchased it? (purchase laws have been bouncing around from area to area in the state for some reason in the last year or so)
3. if you modify the reciever/recoil shield to allow the loading of metalic cartridges through the breach end of the cylinder, like on a colt saa, then its considered to be modified to a cartridge gun under federal atf guidelines.
4. if you intend to use it during muzzleloading only seasons, you CANNOT use the drop in cartridge cylinder as that would be an offense called "hunting out of season" and would in theory give you a large number of fines and some jail time.
I keep seeing this claim on the forums, and have asked several times for a link or reference to the alleged 'guidelines' that say this. So far, nobody has provided one, and I've not been able to find anything along those lines on the BATFE website. Can you document this assertion, please?
In particular, I'm interested in the following situation: a bp revolver with a percussion cylinder installed, but with a loading gate incorporated in the recoil shield to emulate the Colt Peacemaker. This gun was originally marketed by Uberti to European countries where cartridge handguns were outlawed (such as Great Britain); Pietta has also recently added this configuration to the catalog. A picture of the gun:
Does this gun require an FFL transfer?
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pistol1911
Inactive
I have
a Ubertie like the one shown.I bought it 10 years ago from Cabelas.They shipped it directly to me as it is classified as a black powder firearm.No ffl required.Your state law will govern the transfer.I'm glad I live in Alabama not ,Ill.,Ca,NJ etc. P.S. You didn't modify the gun it was made that way.
a Ubertie like the one shown.I bought it 10 years ago from Cabelas.They shipped it directly to me as it is classified as a black powder firearm.No ffl required.Your state law will govern the transfer.I'm glad I live in Alabama not ,Ill.,Ca,NJ etc. P.S. You didn't modify the gun it was made that way.
madcratebuilder
New member
pistol1911 said:
If cabela's shipped you a cartridge gun direct, even a black powder cartridge gun it was an illegal transfer.
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle
loading shotgun, or muzzle loading
pistol, which is designed to use
black powder, or a black powder
substitute, and which cannot use
fixed ammunition. For purposes of
this subparagraph, the term "antique
firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted
into a muzzle loading weapon,
or any muzzle loading weapon which
can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel,
bolt, breechblock, or any combination
thereof.
It's NOT a cartridge gun. It CANNOT BE READILY MODIFIED TO FIRE A CARTRIDGE. It does NOT HAVE A FIREARM FRAME. That's the whole point. It's a percussion gun with a loading gate. Newton24b alleged that simply having a loading gate was sufficient to make the gun a cartridge gun, and thus a firearm under GCA 68. I don't believe that's correct, and so far nobody can provide a reference to the BATF language that makes it that way. The language quoted above (from The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 CFR Ch 44, Par. 921 (a) (16) (C)) does NOT say 'loading gate'.
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pistol1911
Inactive
The revolver looks like a cartridge gun but is not.The cylinder is not bored through.It is a percussion cylinder with nipples.The cylinder must be removed to be loaded on a special loading device.
azredhawk44
Moderator
That thing appears to have a firing pin that is wider in diameter than the primer of a .45 Colt cartridge. Just judging from the picture, at least.
Even if you put a Kirst in it, you'd have to either replace the hammer/firing pin, or do some judicious filing of the firing pin to get it to mate up to the primer on a cartridge.
Frankenstein80
Inactive
"3. if you modify the reciever/recoil shield to allow the loading of metalic cartridges through the breach end of the cylinder, like on a colt saa, then its considered to be modified to a cartridge gun under federal atf guidelines."
"In particular, I'm interested in the following situation: a bp revolver with a percussion cylinder installed, but with a loading gate incorporated in the recoil shield to emulate the Colt Peacemaker. This gun was originally marketed by Uberti to European countries where cartridge handguns were outlawed (such as Great Britain);"
Its alright for the gun to be shipped like that and be a bp revolver. However, if YOU modify it like thtat to take cartridges it is considered a cartridge firearm that YOU constructed even if youput the bp cylinder back in. Hope that clears things up a little bit.
"In particular, I'm interested in the following situation: a bp revolver with a percussion cylinder installed, but with a loading gate incorporated in the recoil shield to emulate the Colt Peacemaker. This gun was originally marketed by Uberti to European countries where cartridge handguns were outlawed (such as Great Britain);"
Its alright for the gun to be shipped like that and be a bp revolver. However, if YOU modify it like thtat to take cartridges it is considered a cartridge firearm that YOU constructed even if youput the bp cylinder back in. Hope that clears things up a little bit.
And that's the answer, right there:
"...it is considered a cartridge firearm that YOU constructed..."
A lot of folks don't know this, but it is perfectly legal for you to manufacture yourself, for your own use, a cartridge-firing firearm.
On the other hand, if you buy a cap-and-ball revolver through the mail (or 'net), then buy a cartridge conversion and install it, the revolver becomes a cartridge-firing revolver that you built yourself. However you can't sell it in that configuration without jumping through a lot of legal hoops, UNLESS you replace the cartridge cylinder with the percussion cylinder. Then I suppose that you can just hand the cartridge cylinder to the new owner, as the cylinder is just a cylinder - has no serial number and consequently is not a firearm.
At least that's how I understand it. Moot point for me, as I like my percussion revolvers just the way the are.
"...it is considered a cartridge firearm that YOU constructed..."
A lot of folks don't know this, but it is perfectly legal for you to manufacture yourself, for your own use, a cartridge-firing firearm.
On the other hand, if you buy a cap-and-ball revolver through the mail (or 'net), then buy a cartridge conversion and install it, the revolver becomes a cartridge-firing revolver that you built yourself. However you can't sell it in that configuration without jumping through a lot of legal hoops, UNLESS you replace the cartridge cylinder with the percussion cylinder. Then I suppose that you can just hand the cartridge cylinder to the new owner, as the cylinder is just a cylinder - has no serial number and consequently is not a firearm.
At least that's how I understand it. Moot point for me, as I like my percussion revolvers just the way the are.
tpelle is correct, but we're off on a tangent here. The question has to do with modifying the recoil shield to incorporate a loading gate. Newton24b made the statement that just the act of incorporating the loading gate made the gun a cartridge gun. If that's true it doesn't matter what cylinder you have with the gun, or even that you have no cylinder at all - it's a cartridge gun. All I'm looking for is the BATF document that makes that allegation a fact.
And I assert that it's NOT 18 CFR 44 Sec 921(a)(16)(C) since there's no mention of a 'loading gate' in that document. But maybe I'm wrong - maybe BATF interprets the language that way. So, where is the BATF interpretation document for that paragraph that makes it clear?
And I assert that it's NOT 18 CFR 44 Sec 921(a)(16)(C) since there's no mention of a 'loading gate' in that document. But maybe I'm wrong - maybe BATF interprets the language that way. So, where is the BATF interpretation document for that paragraph that makes it clear?
madcratebuilder
New member
Sadly, BATF writes the language in such a way it's open to interpretation, but the only interpretation that counts is theirs.
back to the OP
If your legal to own a cartdirge revolver then their is no Federal law against it. State law, I don't know.
The laws I would be concerned about are transferring the revolver that involved shipping.
back to the OP
If your legal to own a cartdirge revolver then their is no Federal law against it. State law, I don't know.
The laws I would be concerned about are transferring the revolver that involved shipping.
its considered a cartridge pistol in michigan once youve cut the loading groove, and installed the gated cartridge conversion recoil shield/loading gate unit and conversion cylinder.
however the dnr secretary who answered my email 3 years ago assured me that if i cut a loading groove in recoil shield, it would be legal for muzzlelaoding season hunt if i simply used the factory PERCUSSION CYLINDER and did not take the cartridge cylinder unit into the field on my person or in my blind or vehicle.
however the dnr secretary who answered my email 3 years ago assured me that if i cut a loading groove in recoil shield, it would be legal for muzzlelaoding season hunt if i simply used the factory PERCUSSION CYLINDER and did not take the cartridge cylinder unit into the field on my person or in my blind or vehicle.
I agree; once the conversion cylinder is installed the gun is considered a cartridge gun by Federal law, regardless of the loading gate and 'loading groove'; this isn't just a Michigan interpretation.
My concern is with the earlier statement that the loading gate ALONE makes it a cartridge gun. I see that often on the forums and so far, nobody has been able to provide any authority to support it.
I may be mistaken, I do not have a BP revolver therefore have not researched this topic. I do live in MI
It is my understanding that the State of Michigan does not differentiate cartridge or BP in handguns. A handgun is a handgun.
I would talk to an attorney or LEO in MI and get the straight skinny as applied to MI law. Heads up on this one.
It is my understanding that the State of Michigan does not differentiate cartridge or BP in handguns. A handgun is a handgun.
I would talk to an attorney or LEO in MI and get the straight skinny as applied to MI law. Heads up on this one.
there is a large flux in rules regulating black powder hand guns in michigan at this time.
for most of the 90s and until sometime in 2002, anyone could order a bp handgun from cabelas if they requested a form that had to be notarized and witnessed (much like a will, or power of attorney form) that stated you were who you claimed to be, had no laws preventing you from owning weapons, and that bp handguns were legal to posess in your area.
i may have a few sets of those forms somewhere in my files for posterity. or i may have used them to light my waterheater pilot light.
-there is an amendment that would allow mail ordering of them directly to your private residence.
-there is an amendment that would remove the need for a purchase permit to buy a bp handgun.
-In one part of michigan its rumored that police are supplying people with documentation stating mail order from online gun stores to private residences are already legal. people claim to have sent the forms to cabelas and gotten bp revolvers and single shot pistols through the mailwith no problem.
at this time if you want one, ask your county sherriff. if you dont think they know whats up, contact the local state police outpost and proceed with what they say.
for most of the 90s and until sometime in 2002, anyone could order a bp handgun from cabelas if they requested a form that had to be notarized and witnessed (much like a will, or power of attorney form) that stated you were who you claimed to be, had no laws preventing you from owning weapons, and that bp handguns were legal to posess in your area.
i may have a few sets of those forms somewhere in my files for posterity. or i may have used them to light my waterheater pilot light.
-there is an amendment that would allow mail ordering of them directly to your private residence.
-there is an amendment that would remove the need for a purchase permit to buy a bp handgun.
-In one part of michigan its rumored that police are supplying people with documentation stating mail order from online gun stores to private residences are already legal. people claim to have sent the forms to cabelas and gotten bp revolvers and single shot pistols through the mailwith no problem.
at this time if you want one, ask your county sherriff. if you dont think they know whats up, contact the local state police outpost and proceed with what they say.
Another option, and in my opinion a vastly superior option as far as getting accurate information is concerned, would be to join Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners (MCRGO); they maintain a very comprehensive site on current Michigan gun laws and provide very timely opinions from lawyers and staff who are expert in Michigan gun laws. Their web site is www.mcrgo.org.
The current law is not in flux. HB4490 was signed into law by Governor Granholm on 10 July 2008 and became effective on 7 January 2009 as 2008 PA 195. It amends several previous Michigan laws, primarily 1927 PA 372, regarding purchasing and licensing handguns. Specific to this thread is Section 2. (7), which states, in part, "This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated." (Emphasis added)
The current law is not in flux. HB4490 was signed into law by Governor Granholm on 10 July 2008 and became effective on 7 January 2009 as 2008 PA 195. It amends several previous Michigan laws, primarily 1927 PA 372, regarding purchasing and licensing handguns. Specific to this thread is Section 2. (7), which states, in part, "This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated." (Emphasis added)
I say again: www.mcrgo.org.
Also: "Common Sense Guide to Michigan Gun Laws" by Carol & Bambery, Bambery Law Press, 1124 South Geneva Drive, DeWitt, MI 48820. $24.95. Every book is current as to Michigan law as of the date of the order.
Also: "Common Sense Guide to Michigan Gun Laws" by Carol & Bambery, Bambery Law Press, 1124 South Geneva Drive, DeWitt, MI 48820. $24.95. Every book is current as to Michigan law as of the date of the order.
Cartridge conversion-legal?
Unless the law has been changed, in Michigan you could own a black powder handgun w/o registration unless it has been loaded.
Once loaded, it is required to be registered.
The cartridge conversion makes it a firearm which requires registration.
Since you probably have fired it anyway as a black powder arm, I would just register it and carry on.
MArk
Unless the law has been changed, in Michigan you could own a black powder handgun w/o registration unless it has been loaded.
Once loaded, it is required to be registered.
The cartridge conversion makes it a firearm which requires registration.
Since you probably have fired it anyway as a black powder arm, I would just register it and carry on.
MArk