Krav Maga

Good post MrWhitman,
But I have to respond. Not to be confrontational, but merely for the sake of discussion. You say that there is no KM technique that advocates using a kick against a knife weilding attacker. I am afraid sir, I have it on tape. I have it in one of your books. Maybe not YOUR book, but the book written by the man who supposedly brought us KM. You say that there is a delay in the thought process that goes into combining BJJ/kali/thai etc, that simply is not true. Any delay that may come is due too the person doing the fighting. No style can prepare you for multiple attackers. And no good bjj instructor is going to tell you to armbar someone in the street. that is crazy. a good bjj instructor is going to tell you to get your butt off the ground. So saying that you armbarred someone in the street, I doubt it.

For those of you who do not realize, the arts of bjj, thai, and kali were not created as sport arts at all. In fact they were created as combat arts, pure and simple. The were created to for the maximum amount of destruction in the shortest period of time. We can argue about who style is best for ages. That will get no where. I still however, maintain, that after my experience dealing with the KM orgainizations, that they are an exercise in marketing.

For the most part, any exposure most of you may have had to bjj and thai has been sport related. You relate the two to NHB competitions. That kind of thing is not even half of what these styles are all about. You are going on what you see and what you are told. Not what the tangible truth is. It does not matter who you have trained with, or who you have heard to be aligned with a style. Learn the roots of a system, and you be the best fighter that you can be.
 
Strange question - why all the emphasis on kicking a knife out of someone's hand?

Would it make any difference if I said I know someone who has kicked a pistol of an attacker's hand?

Admittedly - 1) it was pointed at someone else (the then Sheriff of my home town - that's where I heard about it) 2) I don't think the attacker was trained in what to do to stop it.

I guess my point is that it is possible, even if it's not practical. I don't think any style could take credit for teaching the kind of skill level it would take, it would be up to the individual to develop it.
 
chokeu2, I know you don't mean to be "confrontational" but maybe you need to change your .sig? ;) A couple points:

reDelay - your response simply isn't intuitive. If people are taught multiple ways to respond to a situation, they're obviously going to have to consider those ways. In part, you could say it's the person's "fault" for not training like a dog and mastering his reflexes to the point that the best solutions arises out of his multiple choice situations... but Krav Maga, is in large part, about bringing people up to a high skill level quickly which is one of the reasons it is so strongly endorsed by the Law Enforcement community.

re"...that after my experience dealing with the KM orgainizations" - this seems profoundly unfair. If someone came to me in the guise of a BJJ expert, selling his craft, then I floored him with no prior training, does that suddenly make all BJJ organizations shysters or fraudulent weaklings? A fairer lesson to take away from those experiences is to check credentials before passing judgement on an entire style or perhaps something as simple as caveat emptor... without the decidedly anti-Krav Maga slant?

re"It does not matter who you have trained with, or who you have heard to be aligned with a style. Learn the roots of a system, and you be the best fighter that you can be." - First off, if it doesn't matter who's aligned with a style, how can you judge Krav Maga from those you've seen? Second, I feel I have to disagree heartily. I would say the style is even LESS important than a good instructor. Finally, "roots" can mean psuedo-mystical junk or hailing the originator(s) as an undefeatible hero or some such nonsense. I'm more interested in "Does it work?" and "Can he teach?" Isn't the "roots" simply worshipping those originally "aligned with a style" or- even worse- just marketing? But regardless, Krav Maga is well rooted in the LE community... good enough for me.
 
Paladin, I hear what you are saying. And I think that we are locked into a syntactical miasma! ;-)
When I say roots, it has nothing to do with mystics of any kind. I am talking about the reason the art was developed. I am talking about how the art would fair in the world today, not how it faired in the days when cumbersome armor was worn.

The experience that myself and my partner have had, started with the link that the gentleman above listed. We started out evaluating the art via the tapes for sale. What we saw was horrible examples of self defense. We saw repackaged examples of old traditional martial arts that are not fluid enough to work on the streets nowadays. And realistically, how can you expect to go to a couple of seminars and then hope to become an expert? You can't. I place Krav Maga on the same level of SCARS. The underlying principle of using simple things that work is great. That what we all strive to do. But the idea of going to a seminar, paying several thousand dollars, and getting to the master level is deceptive at best. The people that we spoke with were concerned with our belt levels. The knife defense videos that I saw were nothing short of funny.

I am sorry to sound so jaded, but it is things like this that make the martial arts a bit of a laughing stock at times. There is no quick fix out there if you want to be a good fighter. Or if you want to be proficient at self defense, armed or unarmed.

I would also submit to you that Krav Maga is not as widely esteemed by law enforcement as you say. I know for fact that it is not. Many departments are seeing it for what it is, a marketing package. One of our main focuses is on law enforcement training. You have to take each type of training as an individual subject. You use what works for blades/batons. You use what works to get you off of the ground. You use what works with firearms. And I am here to tell you that the old traditional styles don't do it. There are those of us that train law enforcement who do not have the desire or need to use it as part of our advertisements. We do it, and keep doing it because what we, and others like us, truly have to offer. In my eye, using the fact that one may have trained law enforcement or military at some point, only cheapens the offering. I immediately place a low opinion on anyone with ads screaming with claims of being leading trainers to law enforcement. It is a ploy to pull in students.

My response is absolutely intuitive my friend. The reason that you say KM is "so effective" is that is takes principles of what works and puts them together. That is all any school needs to do. So to say that uniting bjj/thai/kali is non intuitive, I disagree soundly.

My experience with the KM organizations, like I stated before, started with kravmaga.com. And went down hill from there. So far, all we have seen is the desire to repackage. But hey, if there is a market for it, and people buy it, great. Just as long as they don't say they created the things that they are repackaging.

A good instructor, one who has a very deep knowledge is obvioulsy one of the most important factors in training to fight. Sport or non sport. And you just cannot get that from becoming an instructor after going to some expensive seminars. We have gone through and looked at credentials. That is why I do not like what I see.

I will say this, if people want KM, great. Let em have it. But it is far from being the most effective training system out there. Nothing can give you a quick fix, and make you a good fighter in a hurry. Nothing can replace good hard training, and experience.
 
"No style can prepare you for multiple attackers. And no good bjj instructor is going to tell you to armbar someone in the street. that is crazy. a good bjj instructor is going to tell you to get your butt off the ground. So saying that you armbarred someone in the street, I doubt it."

Mr. Whitman and I are not one and the same, it seems that you are partially addressing my post. First and foremost "No style can prepare you for multiple attackers" flies in the face of what many martials arts claim to be all about. You should probably elaborate on that before you go any further since it is a strong assertion that practically no one who teaches martial arts would agree with. I'm also curious about your experience with BJJ since you seem to think BJJ instructors base their repetoire on street fighting or that someone advised me to to do one specific technique in my recent encounter ? That's odd, you also seem to think a BJJ instructor would tell someone to "get his butt off the ground" when it is common knowledge that a BJJ fighter is least vulnerable on his back and is encouraged to drop to his back if a fight isn't going his way (Sakuraba vs Renzo). You make a lot of strange assertions based on little information, maybe its best you kept your opinion to yourself until you can clarify what your experience is ? So far you are sounding like a mall ninja.


"For those of you who do not realize, the arts of bjj, thai, and kali were not created as sport arts at all. In fact they were created as combat arts, pure and simple. The were created to for the maximum amount of destruction in the shortest period of time."

They were all created for different reasons and they are so different in technique and origin I am beginning to wonder whether you have experience with any of them outside of watching videos.

"I still however, maintain, that after my experience dealing with the KM orgainizations, that they are an exercise in marketing. "

This is all from watching a video ?

"For the most part, any exposure most of you may have had to bjj and thai has been sport related. You relate the two to NHB competitions. That kind of thing is not even half of what these styles are all about."

Hmmm, I'm curious where you are learning BJJ and Muay Thai that is not "sport related" ? Other than on videos such a creature does not exist. Maybe you have Walter Michaelowski's "Combat Muay Thai" video ? Send it to me and I'll have him autograph it for you.

"You are going on what you see and what you are told. Not what the tangible truth is"

No, I go on years of competition and being paid to spar with professional fighters. You have yet to tell us your experience however ?

"It does not matter who you have trained with, or who you have heard to be aligned with a style. Learn the roots of a system, and you be the best fighter that you can be."

:confused: ?
 
Mall Ninja, good one A team. Personal attacks in the face of a discussion. Not a good sign. Here is my experience A team. And, by the way, you are free to come to Atlanta or Brazil to check it out on your own. I have been practicing for over 19 years. I have a fight school here in Atlanta, and in Brazil. My business partner and friend, who is also my BJJ teacher is a 5th Deg BJJ BB. We are partners with Mario Sperry in the SUL/Union, coaches to the Brazilian Top Team, validated by CBJJ. Do you even know what CBJJ is? Our team has not lost a Southern Brazilian championship in 11 years. Our fighters compete in NHB on a regular basis. Including the UFC. The othere focus of our business is on law enforcement. We teach to many departments throughout the country, including some federal. That does include firearms mind you. Now, if you are interested to come Atlanta, I will gladly give you my address and phone numbers.

Now, go and find articles written by Mario Sperry that talk about BJJ and self defense. You will see with your own eyes, that the advocation of getting your ass off the ground is paramount. Anyone with any common sense knows that if you are on the street, you do not want to be on the ground for a long period of time. you have to do what you can to either end the confrontation immediately or get up. You seem to think that BJJ people believe their style to the be all end all art. Well, those that are smart do not think that. Those that have practical application do not think that. BJJ is all about leverage. And leverage applies when you are standing up as well as being on the ground. There is MUCH that you can do on your feet while you are tied up with someone. Do you realize that the goal in BJJ, when you are on the ground is to obtain the mount, then pound the daylights out of the opponent? I doubt it from what you have said. We have a very different training progam. The people that I work with are not only interested in sport applications.

And as to multiple attackers, you mean to tell me that you actually believe that you can train to take out multiple attackers, who just may know how to fight? Or are just so overwhelmingly aggressive. Are you going with the flock to the slaughter? You are told that you can take out multiple attackers, so you believe it? Do you know the best way to handle multiple attackers? The answer to that is get out if you can. If you cannot, fight as hard as you can. if you have a firearm available, better be able to use it effectively. Your knowledge of BJJ is merely common. You do not know what is being taught. I doubt that you have been to a school that has such close ties to brazil. You can train for that scenario all you want, but training and real life are very different animals as I am sure that you know. It is good to train for it, but it is not practical to think that you can always make it happen.

As to you trying to accuse me of being a video fighter, again, another personal attack when none have been made on you. Do you have that little to offer to the discussion? All of the arts that I mentioned were created for the destruction of an opponent. Again, you are more than welcome to come to Atlanta to find out. I qualified for the U.S. stick fighting team that fought in the Filipines last summer. Full contact, no pads, save for glove and a glorified fencing helmet. BTW, there are those on this forum that know me, and can back up what I say. Ask Krept. I own few technique videos. Save for the ones that we got from the folks at KM.com . The videos that I do have, are of my fighters. Lots of them. Including Abu Dhabi. You ever had a fighter there? Hmm, didn't think so. As a matter of fact, I will be there again in a few weeks.

Again, my experience with the KM people is that they are all about selling their seminars. You failed to address any of my arguments, which are reasonable, and rational questions. All you have done is come after me personally.

Here is a quote from you, which is SO UNBELIEVABLY wrong: "Other than on videos such a creature does not exist." Again, come to my school in Atlanta, or Porto Allegre Brazil. There is most definately the sport aspect of these arts, and we do teach that. But Thai was created for war, in case you did not know that. Which apparently you did not. BTW, I don't do autographs. Don't need to. As to who I train with... I am getting my BJJ training from a man that has been doing it for 45 years, his name is Ricardo Murgel(he and his wife also happens to live with me). I am getting my training from Sperry. And guess what, from the Gracies in Brazil themselves. My thai from a 3 time lumpini champ. And I have been doing this a long time.

Your "years of competition and being paid to spar with professional fighters," is great. Me too dude. Ever rolled with Coleman, Randleman, Sperry, Mark Robinson, any of the Gracies? Hell, ever rolled with a bjj BB that also happens to be a pro thai fighter? I do on a regular basis. Ever fight the dog brothers? I have. Ever fought in NHB matchs? I have, and do still. I am not here for a penis measuring contest. Yet you come at me with nothing but personal attacks after I apparently question something that you enjoy. I did not attack you. I did not mean to offend you. I merely joined a discussion for the sake of discussion not to attack anyone personally. I did not. I questioned what I believed to be a esoteric marketing plan. I have seen no hard evidence of KM, here, proving itself either in this forum or in a fight.

Law Dog, I am merely joining the discussion bro. No one has to believe a word that I say. I don't care. All I expect is that people attack the arguments that I put forth, not me. If one attacks me personally, all that does is show that, that persona has nothing to offer to the conversation and that the arguments are weak.
 
I was contemplating taking this to email, but I'll try to keep it brief and to the point.

Choke2U, You're absolutely right, we could sit here and make this one more dick waving contest about who is more experienced, knows more people, which style is more proven ect. There is enough of that b.s. on and off the internet as it is. I'll leave that to the amateurs. I'm not going to address the fighting aspects of your posts. If that really concerns you, email me and I'll talk to you about it later. I'll even extend an invitation to you to work with my teacher, or at my MT gym here in L.A. should you visit.

At the end of your post you claimed to have joined the discussion "not to offend anyone", which, well...you seemed to talk a lot of $%^% about Krav Maga and I'm left wondering why ? Because of a video ? Look, I've seen some pretty bogus BJJ videos too, should I dismiss it as well ? Its all part of the martial arts business, and you should know that better than anyone else here.

Look, I don't know who from KM in L.A. approached you, but maybe before you respond you should get in touch with Beverly Hills JJ academy, or Ricksons place in the Palisades to get the info on the KM school before you comment. They should know better than anyone because like I said in my earlier posts, they interact on a regular basis with the KM school on Century Blvd. I know from the guys I have worked with and all the professionals who have dealt with this school say that they are fundamentally sound. And this is from working with them on a first hand basis, not watching videos. Thats the end of the discusion on my end for now. I'm sick, tired, and don't have any more energy to devote to this.
 
I'll have to side with chokeu2 on this one, not out of blind or friendly devotion, but because of the things that forum members on mixedmartialarts.com have said about him, his school and the instructors that teach there.

With the schools that teach multiple styles or a hybrid style that includes BJJ, I have found that there is a very real emphasis on street-effective techniques. On the other hand, I'm sure that you will find BJJ schools that only teach BJJ and omit no-gi techniques, their students will be more likely to butt-flop-to-guard position, both on the street or during a fight in the ring.
 
I think I should just stick to facts because there's so much other stuff going on in this thread...

Choke, what experience did you have with us? Who did you talk to? When was it? You can email me at johnw@kravmaga.com. If anyone misrepresented us, I'd be happy to straighten things out.

Re: seminars -- sure, we want people to come to our seminars. Who doesn't? No one goes through a day of training with us and gets certified in anything. Our certification program is very intense and grueling. You'd love it.

Re: the knife defense you're so worried about -- no such kicks are shown in the instructional portion. There's a segment of the videos that shows dramatized situations. In it, the defender kicks the knife away...after making the actual technique and delivering multiple counterattacks and dropping the attacker. The kick is never made when the attacker is a threat, and it's not part of the technique. This is clear in the video. The technique itself doesn't involve anything of the sort.

Re: law enforcement: arguing this point would suggest that it's a debatable topic, and it's not. We were at FLETC last week, we're in Michigan this week, we'll be in Texas next month. LE considers our training effective, comprehensive, and practical.

You back up your credentials with big names. People who like KM's approach to self defense include Bas Rutten, Marco Ruas, and Oleg Taktarov.

The most interesting part of this thread is the debate regarding the blend of different systems. I still hold that there's a delay caused by conflicting systems -- I've experienced it in people I've fought, even good fighters, who think of punching when a takedown is available, or of a lock when a punch is there to be thrown.
 
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