Kinetic Energy or Ft Pounds Energy...?

Sparatacus, your question about the22 is nearly impossible to answer. So many variables, and so little to work with there. I would probably suggest that you go with the 50 grain gold dot, go for heart and lung, and count on the expanding hollow point and the possibly larger temporary wound cavity doing a better job. I don't think that this is going to drop a person an any configuration. You will still have a man on his feet and in the fight. So go for the center mass and then the head.

In 9mm, you won't find a consensus, but I think that the heavy 147 grain load is gaining the most believers. It will drive a deeper bleeding wound into a perp than a 115 grain will, and that is what stops fights. I use 115 grain silvertip. It has very good results in the first 8 inches of penetration, it is less inclined for collateral damage in case of misses. These are compromises I make.

In my .38 i use +p 110 grain HP, the two best choices are 158 grain +p hp rounds (deep wound) or the 110-125 grain +p.

in my .357 i use 125 grain hp. I don't know that anyone really questions using any other bullet for human targets.

The 110 grain +p is about identical to my 9mm, but they expand a whole lot faster. the cavity they leave in test media is incredible.

I am a follower of light bullet expanding loads, because I live in the city, and I know exactly how much penetration you can get with various rounds in building materials. I have tested them. I am uncomfortable with a round that can penetrate two houses and still inflict lethal wounds, and light bullets aren't as liable to do so.

So, bottom line, I suggest heavy expanding 22 magnum, light (115 gr) expanding 9mm, and light (125 gr)) 357. They are not the only effective choice.

Once again, I suggest that you throw out these energy figures.

What are you trying to do? Create a lethal or disabling wound, which means deep and hemorrhaging. Now, ask yourself which bullet will give you what you need? Then, ask the people around you, do your research, look through the catalogs, and as far as I'm concerned, toss a coin. Hitting them where it hurts with any load will cover 90% of it. the rest is chance.
 
But, I guess what prompted the original question was my 2" NAA Black Widow 22mag, which is my go-everywhere-all-the-time-in-my-pocket BUG. For potential SD needs, should I load it with the lightest, fastest 22mags, such as 33 grains, or should I go with the slower, heavier 40 grains?
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Play with the numbers if you want to but I think you are over thinking the problem. In my own personal experience a 40 grain solid bullet will penetrate better than the lighter faster bullets and better than any hollow point. Go with the heavier bullet. A large shallow wound will not be as effective as a round deep in the vitals of your target.

Just dos centavos from an old dinosaur
 
Game-Shok and Super-X

I shoot a Marlin 22mag (lots of fun, cool round). There are 2 rounds that stand above the others for pop can annihilation. The Federal Game-Shok with a 50gr tip are very effective even though they are slower and have a modest Ft·lb rating (lower than Maxi-Mags). The Super-X with a 40gr JSP seem to do the most damage and have an energy rating that approaches the standard 9mm (highest of all my 22 mags). They scream in at close to 2000fps. The Super-X are pretty impressive (I like these best). For target shooting (accuracy) I like the 40gr FMJ Maxi-Mags and for plinking I like the 45gr Dyna-Points, but the most fun comes from the 50gr Federals and the 40gr Super-X's.
 
For the sake of simplicity and illustrating the amount of energy needed in a handgun bullet, I will address only the most common cause of threat incapacitation, blood loss and loss of blood pressure.

The kinetic energy generated by a handgun bullet is only important in that it be sufficient to generate a wound channel in the target of sufficient depth and diameter (volume) to cause "quick" incapacitation. It takes energy to crush tissue. The crushed tissue causes bleeding. Bleeding causes loss of function and incapacitation.

The body is made up of different types of tissue. Bone being the most common "hard" tissue. The rest is somewhere near the density of water, some greater and some less.

If the bullet you choose hits and destroys an amount of blood vessel rich tissue sufficient to cause bleeding at a rate which will incapacitate your threat in a time period that is within the range of seconds you are willing to accept, you have the parameters before you to consider.

Obviously, the larger the diameter of the wound channel the better, and the deeper the wound channel the better, up to the point of leaving the body.

Bullet placement, in all three dimensions, is critical in causing incapacitation.
 
As JohnKSa stated, there are simply way too many variables for kinetic energy and/or momentum in and of themselves to be accurate predictors of terminal performance. Bullet construction plays just as large, if not larger part in terminal performance as energy and momentum do. For example, a bullet with lots of kinetic energy that expands violently and doesn't penetrate well is inferior to one with less kinetic energy that offers better penetration along with good expansion. Likewise, a bullet with lots of momentum that simply punches clean through a target with little or no expansion is inferior to one which has less momentum but offers good expansion with adequate penetration.

Similarly, shootability and platform are important considerations as well. If, for example, we compare a .357 Magnum to a 9mm we find that the .357 Magnum, on paper, is superior to the 9mm in pretty much all respects (it has significantly greater kinetic energy, penetrates at least as well if not better, and with the right loading expands at least as well if not better). However, the .357 Magnum has other attributes which ballistics don't show that, in certain circumstances, make it an inferior choice to the 9mm. The price of the .357 Magnum's performance is comparatively heavy recoil. No amount of performance can make up for a user who can't make an accurate shot because of overly-heavy recoil. Also, the .357 Magnum is primarily only available in a revolver. While there are semi-automatic handguns available in .357 Magnum, they are usually very large, have limited magazine capacities, rather heavy, fairly expensive and/or suffer from reliability issues. If your situation dictates that a semi-automatic, particularly a high-capacity one, is the best platform then a 9mm would be the clearly superior choice to a .357 Magnum.

With regards to the OP's question about .22 Magnum ammunition, assuming that he can shoot either loading with acceptable accuracy the loading that penetrates better would be the preferable one. The problem therin lies in the fact that momentum in and of itself isn't a good predictor of penetration particularly when you're comparing two different hollowpoint bullets. Were I the OP, I'd seek out .22 Magnum penetration test from guns similar to his rather than rely upon some abstract number. Honestly, if I were to carry a .22 Magnum I'd probably carry some sort of non-expanding bullet as HP's in small calibers generally don't reliably expand and/or don't penetrate adequately.
 
Last time I checked, 22 magnum was running about 1500 fps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Magnum_Rimfire

JHP at that velocity will mushroom. The problem is that the mushrooming bullet loses its ability to penetrate. A nominal 40 gr. of bullet is just not much by way of being able to make a large diameter, deep hole.

I own a 32 ACP, NAA Guardian. Even with Silvertips, I don't trust this caliber to stop anything. Slow down and annoy is my expectation. I used to trust in .380 ACP, until technology started putting out 9mm semi-autos that are lighter and smaller than the Colt Mustang or Colt Govt.

When choosing ammo and calibers, you want to consider physiology as well as physics. Find a bullet/load combination which will make a large hole, penetrate and have sufficient energy to create tissue shock (hydrostatic shock). Personally, I favor heavy, large and "sufficient velocity" over small and fast.

The analogy I like to use is: Compare having your vehicle struck by a slow moving freight as compared to being T-Boned by a motorcycle at 100 mph.

-- Rifle ballistics are a whole other paradigm. :D
 
I own a 32 ACP, NAA Guardian. Even with Silvertips, I don't trust this caliber to stop anything. Slow down and annoy is my expectation.
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Well, your first mistake is to think that Winchester Silvertips are good bullets. But all that aside, the 32acp is quite capable of performing for self defense needs. And that "It will only **** the bad guy off" stuff is rhetoric that you are hearing from people who think they know a lot about guns. If you check out these tests, http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm you will see that there are plenty of hollowpoint type bullets that can expand and penetrate at the 11+" mark.

And for what it's worth, I've never yet found one person willing to be intentionally shot by a 32acp because they thought it couldn't hurt them. Or that it would just **** them off. And in 95% of ALL self defense scenarios, the mere presence of a weapon is enough to deter the threat. I have no problem planting 7 rounds into someone's chest to handle the other 5% of the time.
 
In your example of two identical rounds with different momenta, the bullet with the greater momentum will also have the greater kinetic energy. As such, you couldn't attribute differences in penetration solely to the momentum.
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The interpretation of the practical meaning of momentum in the world of bullets that I provided is based on the scientific explanation of what momentum means. As you point out, constructing an experiment using bullets would be a little tricky (though not impossible*) for the reasons you mention. Fortunately, our understanding of kinetic energy and momentum is not limited to what we can discover from experiments with firearms.

* One could construct a test that varied both the mass and velocity of a projectile to keep the energy identical while varying the momentum of a projectile to determine the effects of momentum on penetration when energy is held constant.

For example, if the projectile had a mass of m in one test with a velocity of v then if in the second test the projectile mass were increased to 4m and the velocity were decreased to v/2 then the momentum would increase by a factor of 2 while energy would remain the same. It might be hard to vary the mass of a projectile by that much without changing other factors, but that's just an example to make the math work out neatly. The same approach could be employed with much smaller changes to the projectile mass.

You'd want to do the test with non-deforming projectiles to simplify things.
 
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Momentum favors heavier bullets, while Kinetic Energy favors lighter, faster bullets when each is fired from the same cartridge at the same pressure levels.
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Actually, momentum favors mass and velocity equally (the formula is mass times velocity) while energy favors velocity over mass (the formula is mass times velocity squared). Doubling the velocity of a bullet will have the same effect on momentum as doubling the mass, but doubling the velocity will cause an exponetial increase in energy while doubling the mass will not.
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Yes, but you failed to see my point. From the same cartridge, at the same pressure, a lighter bullet will appear better on paper using "kinetic energy" due to it's higher velocity (which gives it more energy in the calculation).

In truth, the heavier bullet loaded at the same pressure will have lower velocity, and lower kinetic energy because of the formula used to measure energy, but will retain velocity and energy better for deeper penetration through any particular matter, whether it be a gas, liquid, or solid.

Doubling the mass or velocity of any particular bullet in any particular caliber is entirely possible in the extreme ends of the bullet weight range, but doing this is irrelevant to the comparison asked by the OP.

My example was using the same cartridge at the same pressure to negate the affects of discrepancies encountered with different loads and different cartridges. It's far better to compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges.
 
Quote:
Momentum favors heavier bullets, while Kinetic Energy favors lighter, faster bullets when each is fired from the same cartridge at the same pressure levels.

Quote:
Actually, momentum favors mass and velocity equally (the formula is mass times velocity) while energy favors velocity over mass (the formula is mass times velocity squared). Doubling the velocity of a bullet will have the same effect on momentum as doubling the mass, but doubling the velocity will cause an exponential increase in energy while doubling the mass will not.
Yes, but you failed to see my point. From the same cartridge, at the same pressure, a lighter bullet will appear better on paper using "kinetic energy" due to it's higher velocity (which gives it more energy in the calculation).

In truth, the heavier bullet loaded at the same pressure will have lower velocity, and lower kinetic energy because of the formula used to measure energy, but will retain velocity and energy better for deeper penetration through any particular matter, whether it be a gas, liquid, or solid.

Doubling the mass or velocity of any particular bullet in any particular caliber is entirely possible in the extreme ends of the bullet weight range, but doing this is irrelevant to the comparison asked by the OP.

My example was using the same cartridge at the same pressure to negate the affects of discrepancies encountered with different loads and different cartridges. It's far better to compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges.
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I understand the point you're making, I'm just pointing out that mass and velocity have equal effect on momentum while velocity has much greater effect on energy.

Perhaps the example of doubling mass or velocity is a bit extreme. If, for example, we have a 100grn bullet at 1000 fps, that will give us 222 ft.lbs. of energy and 14 lb.ft./sec. momentum. If we increase the bullet weight by 5% to 105grn, we now have 233 ft.lbs energy and 15 lb.ft./sec momentum which is an increase of 5% and 7% respectively. However, if we increase the velocity by 5% to 1050fps, our energy is 244 ft.lbs. and momentum is 15 lb.ft./sec., an increase of 9% and 7% respectively. Notice that the momentum increased by the same amount regardless of whether mass or velocity was increased (so long as we increase them by the same percentage).

My point is that for a given mass at a given velocity, if either value is increased by the same percentage, the increase in momentum will be the same regardless of which value is increased. However, the increase in energy will be greater if the velocity is increased by a given percentage rather than the mass increased by the same percentage. Your original post seemed to suggest that an increase in mass would yield a greater increase in momentum than an increase in velocity.
 
Recent posts; mass, size, speed KE; wound channels-trauma..

All the recent posts about mass, speed and KE are great but how does that relate to the bullet impact or the blunt force trauma, penetration or wound channel it would create in a fired round?
My post about why KE levels are important and why & how higher KE levels work better for carry-duty type handgun calibers supports those points.
A larger handgun bullet will move slower but hit a human target with a wider impact wound & a higher KE level. The force, shock & impact of the larger handgun round will stop a violent attacker faster than a smaller, but faster round with a lower KE level. The small round may be able to cause long term injury or even death but that would take a much longer time than a sudden powerful round(like a .45acp, .357magnum or 10mm) that will strike a target, have a KE powered punch and cause a desired response(the violent subject going down or not fighting anymore).
What if the violent attacker is hit in the chest area/upper torso and does not stop or may have body armor/vest protection?
Then I'd aim for the lower torso-pelvis area or if it's CQB range(point blank), the unexposed head area. The human head is not the best target in most common LE-armed citizen encounters for a # of reasons but sometimes it may be the only viable option.

Clyde
 
Obviously we can't rate stopping power by one single physical characteristic. After all, a 95 MPH fastball has 30% more momentum than a 230 gr bullet at 800 fps, but I know which one I'd rather be hit with.

Likewise, all the kinetic energy in the world won't matter unless the bullet's kinetic energy is expended *inside the target*. Any kinetic energy remaining when the bullet leaves the target is wasted.
 
Wasted KE, Let's Party...

I don't think wasted KE would be an immediate issue compared to the other factors of a shooting event.
To me it's like saying if you had to buy shrimp or crab legs for a office party or group. If you bought 50lbs of shrimp or crab legs for 80 people and everyone got enough to eat & had a good time would you complain about what might be left? Probably not, ;).
Now as I posted before, that doesn't mean you should carry a .44magnum or .454 Casull revolver solely because of the power levels. As sworn LE officer/writer Ed Sanow wrote; any KE level over 700 ft-lbs in a carry/duty handgun round is a waste.
It does show though that a .40 or .357sig caliber could be a better pick than a 9x19mm or .380acp in a pistol around the same size/wt.

You can't get something for nothing but you can choose wisely based on performance & design.
 
Lets look at this from a different perspective. If I was to use a knife and stab a person in the chest would ft. lbs. matter? How about lb.seconds? If I then used a sword to run a person through in the same manner but more slowly? Assuming all other things are equal which will be more lethal? Which would do the job faster,the complete penetration of the targets torso or the shorter knife that didn't quite exit the torso?

Better yet lets do the same thing with a sharpened rod one short and one long? Which will prove more lethal? None of this foot pounds/ joules or pound seconds/ newton second numbers are going to give you a clear picture of the performance of a particular bullet. What does matter is the amount of penetration, impact location, and the total amount of tissue crushed and torn into shreds that will matter. We know that flesh can be quite resilient and withstand a substantial amount of impact and blunt trauma. Something flesh doesn't resist all that well is shearing or cutting. A knife is far more lethal than a handgun but that isn't the point. The point is that no calculated number is going to give you any useful information. Other than the potential of the same type of bullet in the same caliber within it's designed envelope will likely perform. You could have a bullet designed to work well in the 900-1200 fps range then drive it to 1600 fps and it be a poor performing man stopper. On the other hand you could drive the bullet at 500 fps and it be inadequate for the job due to the same problem, lack of penetration. The fact that a HP tends to not exit the target is a good thing for liability reasons but if you could drive it harder and get it to exit it would do a better job IMO. You will bleed out faster from two holes compared to one. Outright crushing and mechanical destruction of tissue and vital organs along with profuse bleeding or severing of major CNS connections is the way to get a caliber to perform.

Bullets can do strange things in a body and there are factors that are not so easily quantified as well. Just look at the fragmentation of a .223 Remington FMJ round. Although I'd say without that fragmentation it wouldn't be a very good performer overall. This is just an example of where a bullet was pushed beyond it's envelope and actually performs better than another slower bigger bullet. So in reality what do a know? I can think on the subject and theorize all day long. Only by actually applying and testing the cartridge in some form of medium will I know anything.

The preferred medium is the intended target. It's a little impractical if that happens to be a human being. :o

Anyway... don't get too wrapped up in the numbers and look at what the bullet will actually do. Not all targets are of the fleshy nature too. Sometimes it comes down to being able to penetrate a barrier. Sometimes it comes down to penetration of a barrier and a fleshy target. Sometimes it comes down to being able to punch holes through several fleshy targets. The purpose for which you are choosing a particular cartridge will drive the need for a particular set of characteristics that it must possess to perform the task assigned. After all you wouldn't use a top fuel dragster to race in the Indy 500.
 
Slug; I totally agree with the "More Blood Loss" factor is better. So, in theory, an exit wound is definitely better than a Hollow Point that doesn't exit. There is one problem with this however. Blood loss (Or lowering of blood pressure) which indeed definitely results in more effective stopping of the threat, is only applicable when time is on your side.

If you're one of the people who believe that in self defense situations, you're going to get into a gun fight; where their 15+ round magazine is NEEDED. And their backup magazines are needed. Then that would possibly be a situation where the drop in blood pressure from an exit wound could be beneficial. If you believe that your "gun fight" might have you diving being dumpsters and behind cars, and having a shoot-out, then yes; an exit wound, causing an increased drop in blood pressure would be great. But that isn't the case normally for self defense. In a normal "Out of your home" self defense situation, the scenario is over in a matter of seconds. And the adrenaline of the situation does not allow the exit wound and lowering of blood pressure to be a significant factor. Remember, the criminal choosing you as a victim in public does so because they do not believe you are armed. They think you're an easy mark. Those situations do not afford you the time required where an exit wound and loss of blood pressure is an advantage. The fact that you have ANY gun in a public self defense situation, is usually enough in itself. Accurately hitting your target, usually is enough to take care of the remaining factor. As for legitimate stopping power, in these situations, that can only be done with a shot to a vital organ or the CNS.

Now, home defense is a totally different situation. Criminals usually assume no one is there, but if they are, they anticipate the possibility of resistance. And in the home/business environments, barriers and multiple shots could very well be a possibility. And one good hit with a bullet that allows for an exit wound, may provide you the drop in blood pressure to eliminate the threat. In these situations, time is definitely on your side. But it's also not uncommon for the criminal to leave immediately at the first sign of any resistance. Just that an indoor personal crime does lend itself to the possibility of a "longer" period of time, and therefor an exit wound and blood loss could be a beneficial factor.

For home defense, in the hand gun category, my #1 gun is ALWAYS a 357 magnum revolver. And it's always loaded with 158 grain +P hollow points. And it's for the exact reasons you stated. I WANT an exit wound. I want the person dead. I don't want the person arrested and sent to jail. I don't want a court case where they are possibly found innocent or sentenced to probation or a short sentence. If they are in my house, and they are armed, I already have the majority of the laws behind and supporting me. I have NEVER been one who feels they need a 15+ round magazine for anything. IF I pull the trigger, I WILL hit my target. Sorry, but I don't pull the trigger hoping to "Scare" someone away. There are no warning shots. There are no spray-and-pray. And in the house, I very much want the 357 magnum. I don't want them to get up. In public, in a self defense scenario, any pistol is usually more than enough. It doesn't need an exit wound. IF I even have to pull the trigger, which 95% of the time I wouldn't, a single shot or two will be more than enough in just about every situation. Again however; for those who think they are going to be in "Shoot-Outs", diving behind dumpsters, taking on an entire gang, some drugged up person who is so strung out that they can't feel any bullets; "Yet somehow is coherent enough to make decisions on the crime they are committing; then in those scenarios, just any gun and ammo wouldn't suffice. For them, the BEST ammo would be one then penetrated all the way through the body, and had just enough remaining energy to exit the body about a foot and fall to the ground. And, that this is coming from a hi-cap magazine with all the rounds on target.
 
So, in theory, an exit wound is definitely better than a Hollow Point that doesn't exit.
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I think this assertion would be hard to support.

Living creatures don't need to bleed externally in order to die of blood loss or from the effects of bleeding. In fact, a wound that caused the lungs to fill with blood or that caused substantial bleeding that filled other internal cavities with blood might very well result in much more rapid incapacitation than a wound that resulted in a lot of external bleeding.

Your point that blood loss is a relatively slow method of incapacitation is well taken, however. In the Miami FBI shootout, one of the criminals took a lethal hit very early in the timeline and yet he managed to stay functional long enough to kill and/or seriously injure several people before blood loss reduced his effectiveness substantially.
 
The question here is the efficient transfer of energy...

Read up on hunting rounds, these guys have that down to a science.....
 
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