Quantum Singularity
New member
I am surprised Kimbers got on Kalifornia's safe list. The talk was that they wouldn't make it. Glad I was wrong!
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/certlist.htm
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/certlist.htm
Kimbers on "Safe List"
- Thread starter Quantum Singularity
- Start date
DialONE911
New member
Does Kimber have a firing pin safety?
It's an interesting list, notably for what isn't on it. Especially the Ruger P-95 & P-97.
It's an interesting list, notably for what isn't on it. Especially the Ruger P-95 & P-97.
None of the original style Kimber models have a firing pin safety. Anyone know if they submitted their original production designs (Series 70 type) for testing or if they modified them to be Series 80?
As to the webpage listing, that may be an incomplete list. I hear the manufacturers have to pay CA-DOJ something like $2000 per gun just to get listed on their webpage!! What a ripoff! So there may be a more extensive list somewhere else...
What's potentially bad is they may not bother paying for certification testing and/or listing of special limited edition models, presumably lower volume lines, with the result that they won't be available in Kalif. for sale. Let's hope not...
As to the webpage listing, that may be an incomplete list. I hear the manufacturers have to pay CA-DOJ something like $2000 per gun just to get listed on their webpage!! What a ripoff! So there may be a more extensive list somewhere else...
What's potentially bad is they may not bother paying for certification testing and/or listing of special limited edition models, presumably lower volume lines, with the result that they won't be available in Kalif. for sale. Let's hope not...
Manufacturers don't have to pay $2000 to list each gun. They pay a one time fee to be listed, and then have to submit 3 guns for each model they want listed, and have to pay a nominal amount to cover the testing. Yea, its expensive, but nowhere near what an auto manufacturer has to pay. The cost should not affect large manufacturers, but rather kill off the smaller ones.
Wow, Kimber passed ? Now all they have to do is manufacture a 1911 that actually LOOKS like a 1911. Maybe its time they put out a milspec model for under $600 ? No forward slide serrations, no crappy faux custom parts, just a plain vanilla 1911.
ARE YOU LISTENING KIMBER ???? GET RID OF THAT FOPPISH, ANKLE GRABBER SYMBOL WHILE YOUR AT IT !!!!
Wow, Kimber passed ? Now all they have to do is manufacture a 1911 that actually LOOKS like a 1911. Maybe its time they put out a milspec model for under $600 ? No forward slide serrations, no crappy faux custom parts, just a plain vanilla 1911.
ARE YOU LISTENING KIMBER ???? GET RID OF THAT FOPPISH, ANKLE GRABBER SYMBOL WHILE YOUR AT IT !!!!
Ahh the memories....
No, no bad experiences, reminiscing about Grampa's old Colt. What an impressive piece of machinery ! Now, in order to get something that shoots like it I got to deal with the pragmatic sensibilities and high fashion of people from the flyover states, you know, the same ones who put neon green pinstripes on their metallic purple Model A's with the zaniest chrome wheels they can find. To them its cool, to everyone else who isn't a car hobbiest it looks like poo.
I'd rather start with a box stock 32 Ford the way ol Henry designed it, rather than an interpretation from some guy named Doug in Wichita who's idea of "Custom" is about as appealing as beef jerky, CDs bought at gas stations, and plastic bass that sing. Call me crazy, I'm sure Wilson's, Les Baers, and all those fancy big named guns shoot swell, but one look at those abominations and their is no doubt they were thought out by men like Doug.
Give me a 1911 that shoots like those guns but please KISS, thats the beauty of a classic. No chunky forward slide serrations, no two tone, no grip safeties that stick into your palm like a frozen nipple, no elongated drilled out triggers, keep the checkering practical and for God's sakes STOP screwing with the shape of the goddamned gun !
No, no bad experiences, reminiscing about Grampa's old Colt. What an impressive piece of machinery ! Now, in order to get something that shoots like it I got to deal with the pragmatic sensibilities and high fashion of people from the flyover states, you know, the same ones who put neon green pinstripes on their metallic purple Model A's with the zaniest chrome wheels they can find. To them its cool, to everyone else who isn't a car hobbiest it looks like poo.
I'd rather start with a box stock 32 Ford the way ol Henry designed it, rather than an interpretation from some guy named Doug in Wichita who's idea of "Custom" is about as appealing as beef jerky, CDs bought at gas stations, and plastic bass that sing. Call me crazy, I'm sure Wilson's, Les Baers, and all those fancy big named guns shoot swell, but one look at those abominations and their is no doubt they were thought out by men like Doug.
Give me a 1911 that shoots like those guns but please KISS, thats the beauty of a classic. No chunky forward slide serrations, no two tone, no grip safeties that stick into your palm like a frozen nipple, no elongated drilled out triggers, keep the checkering practical and for God's sakes STOP screwing with the shape of the goddamned gun !
Will Beararms
New member
Please educate me. With this incremental step in the master plan of California, does this mean that after Jan. 2001 if I move to Cali from another state that I will have to turn in my non-compliant gun to the Police or is this law being granfathered in?
Will hi-cap mags be outlawed outright or is this also being grandfathered in?
Where will the offending mags and pistols be turned in to and what will happen to them if part of this "law" involves confiscation.
If it weren't for the fact that this could spread across the Nation if Gore is President. (50/50 Congress with Republican squishes and Lieberman's tie-braking vote.) I would be lashing out at California more than I usually do. There are great folks in Cali like you Quantum. The problem is the wealth is controlled by a minority of liberal despots.
This law is monumental for all of us in that we are approaching a time where some States may be forced to forfeit Fed Monies to maintain the RKBA. We are moving closer to a major showdown in this Nation.
Will hi-cap mags be outlawed outright or is this also being grandfathered in?
Where will the offending mags and pistols be turned in to and what will happen to them if part of this "law" involves confiscation.
If it weren't for the fact that this could spread across the Nation if Gore is President. (50/50 Congress with Republican squishes and Lieberman's tie-braking vote.) I would be lashing out at California more than I usually do. There are great folks in Cali like you Quantum. The problem is the wealth is controlled by a minority of liberal despots.
This law is monumental for all of us in that we are approaching a time where some States may be forced to forfeit Fed Monies to maintain the RKBA. We are moving closer to a major showdown in this Nation.
If the gun isn't "safe" it can't be sold in california, the plan was to eliminate unsafe/cheap affordable guns so that criminals can't get cheap guns make about as much sense as me taking a crap in my coffee cup.
Not sure what it does to used gun sales, because there is no manf. To submit some of the older guns for testing.
Mags with capacity of 10+ exclsuive have been illegal to sell, trade, loan, dream about since the 1/1/2000 Mags will be hard to confiscate, because there is no way of knowing who has what. If you are in CA right now, the guns will be grandfathered in, but CA has a history of forcing people to give up their guns when they move to the state. No a lawyer, but I remember reading that if you move to this state, CA, you have to transfer your guns to yourself through an FFL, something like that could be wrong though.
Too bad I like the silicon valley to much. Pretty soon, I'm gonna have to choose between work and guns
Not sure what it does to used gun sales, because there is no manf. To submit some of the older guns for testing.
Mags with capacity of 10+ exclsuive have been illegal to sell, trade, loan, dream about since the 1/1/2000 Mags will be hard to confiscate, because there is no way of knowing who has what. If you are in CA right now, the guns will be grandfathered in, but CA has a history of forcing people to give up their guns when they move to the state. No a lawyer, but I remember reading that if you move to this state, CA, you have to transfer your guns to yourself through an FFL, something like that could be wrong though.
Too bad I like the silicon valley to much. Pretty soon, I'm gonna have to choose between work and guns
Regarding SIG availability and external safeties, since Glocks and Walther P99's have passed certification, I'm hoping SIGs will, too.
Regarding what is a 'safe' in Kalif., actually it also won't include whatever handguns not submitted for testing and certified. So part of the effect is that, unless the big name custom gunsmiths are going to pay the fees and submit so many test guns per model for testing/certification, some the highest quality and most expensive custom guns will no longer be available for sale either. I doubt the one or two man custom 1911 shops are going to bother or can afford to comply, even if they were inclined to...
So far nothing in the 'junk gun' law involves confiscation of what is already owned.
As far as moving into Kalif., I believe what handguns you have is grandfathered in (not so with assault weapons!)
You will have 'register' them though...
Info on Report of Handgun Ownership form that must be filled out for new Kalif. residents (plus $14 fee PER handgun) within 60 days, another stupid new law... (ripoff!)
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ab991.htm
(gee, I feel safer already...)
You may be technically SOL with the hi-cap mags. My understanding that they would have to been in the state as of 1/1/2000 to be grandfathered. You might want to go below and do a text search on 'magazine' to double check.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm
Of course, them proving it would be another story...
It is okay for Kalif. residents to leave the state with hi-caps and come back with them (import) as long as the mags were owned within the state before 1/1/00...
Regarding what is a 'safe' in Kalif., actually it also won't include whatever handguns not submitted for testing and certified. So part of the effect is that, unless the big name custom gunsmiths are going to pay the fees and submit so many test guns per model for testing/certification, some the highest quality and most expensive custom guns will no longer be available for sale either. I doubt the one or two man custom 1911 shops are going to bother or can afford to comply, even if they were inclined to...
So far nothing in the 'junk gun' law involves confiscation of what is already owned.
As far as moving into Kalif., I believe what handguns you have is grandfathered in (not so with assault weapons!)
You will have 'register' them though...
Info on Report of Handgun Ownership form that must be filled out for new Kalif. residents (plus $14 fee PER handgun) within 60 days, another stupid new law... (ripoff!)
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/ab991.htm
(gee, I feel safer already...)
You may be technically SOL with the hi-cap mags. My understanding that they would have to been in the state as of 1/1/2000 to be grandfathered. You might want to go below and do a text search on 'magazine' to double check.
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm
Of course, them proving it would be another story...
It is okay for Kalif. residents to leave the state with hi-caps and come back with them (import) as long as the mags were owned within the state before 1/1/00...
s_lew wrote:
"Regarding SIG availability and external safeties, since Glocks and Walther P99's have passed certification, I'm hoping SIGs will, too. "
Glocks and Walthers have that funny little trigger within a trigger that qualifies it as a "positive manually operated safety device" approved by the BATF as per SB15. SIG does not have such a trigger.
The only chance SIG has is if the internal firing pin block safety (which is deactivated by pulling the trigger) is considered a "positive manually operated safety device" by the BATF. And of course, SIGARMS (who is going through a corporate re-org) has to put up the bill for each model to be tested(lab fees=$5000-$6000/model) and certified($2000 to DOJ per model). Total cost to SIG= $8000 in fees plus three actual guns for each model!
I REALLY want a P220!
"Regarding SIG availability and external safeties, since Glocks and Walther P99's have passed certification, I'm hoping SIGs will, too. "
Glocks and Walthers have that funny little trigger within a trigger that qualifies it as a "positive manually operated safety device" approved by the BATF as per SB15. SIG does not have such a trigger.
The only chance SIG has is if the internal firing pin block safety (which is deactivated by pulling the trigger) is considered a "positive manually operated safety device" by the BATF. And of course, SIGARMS (who is going through a corporate re-org) has to put up the bill for each model to be tested(lab fees=$5000-$6000/model) and certified($2000 to DOJ per model). Total cost to SIG= $8000 in fees plus three actual guns for each model!
I REALLY want a P220!
Private party transfers are exempt.
According to the DOJ, private party transfers are exempt. I assume that means if you have a gun that isn't on the DOJ list and you yourself are not a dealer, I, also not a dealer, can buy it from you (through an FFL, of course).
Do I have that right?
According to the DOJ, private party transfers are exempt. I assume that means if you have a gun that isn't on the DOJ list and you yourself are not a dealer, I, also not a dealer, can buy it from you (through an FFL, of course).
Do I have that right?
You don't have to pay $2,000 for EACH model, it covers all models that pass criteria for a given company.
Where do you get the $5,000-$6,000 lab fees ?
A company has to supply three guns, one to be tested, one to keep as a reference against future modifications, and a third as a replacement in case either of the first two are damaged. A Sig 220 probably costs $60-$100 to manufacture, multiply that by three, and add the $600 for the lab tests and you get the final amount. Getting the Sig 220 to pass shouldn't cost more than $1,000. I posted about a month ago saying companies won't be listing their guns till after the first in order to milk sales from gullible gun owners. Well, guess I was right....
Where do you get the $5,000-$6,000 lab fees ?
A company has to supply three guns, one to be tested, one to keep as a reference against future modifications, and a third as a replacement in case either of the first two are damaged. A Sig 220 probably costs $60-$100 to manufacture, multiply that by three, and add the $600 for the lab tests and you get the final amount. Getting the Sig 220 to pass shouldn't cost more than $1,000. I posted about a month ago saying companies won't be listing their guns till after the first in order to milk sales from gullible gun owners. Well, guess I was right....
MTAA wrote:
"You don't have to pay $2,000 for EACH model, it covers all models that pass criteria for a given company. Where do you get the $5,000-$6,000 lab fees ?"
Here is what CA law states:
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:
Chapter 1.3 (commencing with Section 12125) is added to
Title 2 of Part 4 of the Penal Code, to read:
12127. (a) As used in this chapter, the "firing requirement for handguns" means a test in which the manufacturer provides three handguns of the make and model for which certification is sought..., The laboratory shall fire 600 rounds from EACH gun...
Labs charge around $600 for each gun tested. As above, ALL THREE guns are tested. That is $1800 for lab fees per model (I mistakenly multiplied this figure again by three and came up with $5000-$6000).
Also, if the DOJ charges a $2000 one time listing fee, why does the DOJ give a partial listing for a particular manufacturer and state: "Other models have passed, and will be listed when the manufacturers pay the listing fees" Just extortion, I guess.
So add all that up and it's still:
$1800 in lab fees
$2000 DOJ listing fee
= 3 guns + $3800 per model.
SIGs cost $60-100 to manufacture??? C'mon now, that's "fuzzy math".
"You don't have to pay $2,000 for EACH model, it covers all models that pass criteria for a given company. Where do you get the $5,000-$6,000 lab fees ?"
Here is what CA law states:
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:
Chapter 1.3 (commencing with Section 12125) is added to
Title 2 of Part 4 of the Penal Code, to read:
12127. (a) As used in this chapter, the "firing requirement for handguns" means a test in which the manufacturer provides three handguns of the make and model for which certification is sought..., The laboratory shall fire 600 rounds from EACH gun...
Labs charge around $600 for each gun tested. As above, ALL THREE guns are tested. That is $1800 for lab fees per model (I mistakenly multiplied this figure again by three and came up with $5000-$6000).
Also, if the DOJ charges a $2000 one time listing fee, why does the DOJ give a partial listing for a particular manufacturer and state: "Other models have passed, and will be listed when the manufacturers pay the listing fees" Just extortion, I guess.
So add all that up and it's still:
$1800 in lab fees
$2000 DOJ listing fee
= 3 guns + $3800 per model.
SIGs cost $60-100 to manufacture??? C'mon now, that's "fuzzy math".
I was told by people working with the DOJ that they only test one gun, which makes sense, and that the other two are used for the aforementioned purposes. The importance of that being so they have a reference in case a manufacturers changes the gun (so it can be tested again with the modifications). And no, they charge only $600 for each model being tested, regardless of whether they are using one or all three.
Also, if the DOJ charges a $2000 one time listing fee, why does the DOJ give a partial listing for a particular manufacturer and state: "Other models have passed, and will be listed when the manufacturers pay the listing fees" Just extortion, I guess.
The $2000 fee is to be paid before any of the manufacturer's firearms are submitted. It's not model specific. If you had paid close attention you would have noticed that footnote is put under every manufacturers listing and (I'm hoping) is a general reminder.
$60-$100 ? You betcha. Ok, maybe more like $100, keep in mind this is a mass produced gun and not custom. The additional mark up is largely a result of importation and the middlemen involved. Sorry, I was born and raised in wholesale and always find it amusing what people think their product is really worth.
Also, if the DOJ charges a $2000 one time listing fee, why does the DOJ give a partial listing for a particular manufacturer and state: "Other models have passed, and will be listed when the manufacturers pay the listing fees" Just extortion, I guess.
The $2000 fee is to be paid before any of the manufacturer's firearms are submitted. It's not model specific. If you had paid close attention you would have noticed that footnote is put under every manufacturers listing and (I'm hoping) is a general reminder.
$60-$100 ? You betcha. Ok, maybe more like $100, keep in mind this is a mass produced gun and not custom. The additional mark up is largely a result of importation and the middlemen involved. Sorry, I was born and raised in wholesale and always find it amusing what people think their product is really worth.
MTAA wrote;
Please remember that Kimber saw its niche in the 1911 market as being a company which factory produced "custom" guns at a price lower than that of customized stock guns. I sure wish Kimber had been available back when I bought my 1991A1. I paid about $500 for it new, and then proceded to drop another grand into it getting it set up just the way I wanted. Today, I could get a Kimber Compact CDP for less than that, and it would be better set up and more suitable for me than my gun.
There's already beaucoup companies producing stock 1911's. Kimber fits in just right, between the "stockers" and the expensive "full housers."
Please remember that Kimber saw its niche in the 1911 market as being a company which factory produced "custom" guns at a price lower than that of customized stock guns. I sure wish Kimber had been available back when I bought my 1991A1. I paid about $500 for it new, and then proceded to drop another grand into it getting it set up just the way I wanted. Today, I could get a Kimber Compact CDP for less than that, and it would be better set up and more suitable for me than my gun.
There's already beaucoup companies producing stock 1911's. Kimber fits in just right, between the "stockers" and the expensive "full housers."