Killing conundrum

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Culling is an action taken to protect an ecosystem from what's perceived to be a negative change. It's generally rational when dealing with herbivores, protecting against overeating in a habitat. Sometimes deer, sometimes elephants. Not much different from a rancher selling off calves and old cows except for the method.
 
I do and always have hunted very little, I also grew up in ranch country where animals, stock, dog and horse were treated very differently by different people. I will with no apologies say this, often but NOT always the manner in which a man treats an animal with which he has no direct emotional attachment is directly proportional to the measure of his character. Ive watch many animals die many different ways and so try to pursued someone to think that animal doesnt know whats going on is absurd. That being said, I take no issue with the humane dispatching of an animals be it stock, game or simply a suffering animal. I have killed for all three reasons, life has taugh me to do it swiftly and as painlessly as possible. Is there empathy for the death of an animal, yes for me, for you maybe thats not the right word. Would I take issue in the future of dispatching a wounded, no. If I had just been hit by a car and my guts were strune across two lanes I sure are heck hope someone would put the barrel behind my ear and be done with it.
 
Sometimes I kill animals indiscriminately just because for whatever reason I or someone else doesn't want them to be alive any more. Without any regard to any pain and or suffering they may go through until they die.

By number, most of them are insects (my wife is allergic to ants) but also poison rodents in every place anything with electrical wires is kept.

That said there are some animals, when I am hunting, the only thing I shoot in their direction is a camera because I just want the image of the magestic animal.

And ones that I love that I wish would never pass for my own selfish reasons despite the pain they were in. There's millions of humans around the world that fit into that category.

I doubt I would kill a 3 legged squirrel any faster than I would kill my friends 3 legged dog, unless he was trying to get into the attic, then he would be just as dead as the last perfectly healthy one that did the same.
 
Nature will take care of injured animals as shown with the squirrel. Whether it be from a poor shot, car, or other occurance a predator will be along shortly and take care of them. Some years back ODNR commissioned a study of the effects of the expanding coyote population on deer. Someone had touted coyotes as a solution to the expanding deer population. The study stated there was no evidence of coyotes killing a healthy deer. Healthy was specified because there were plenty of cases of them taking wounded animals.

Part of the reasons wounded livestock is euthanized is to eliminate temptations for predators to enter areas with other livestock. Not good to train predators with easy meals.

When people euthanize a pet, it is usually long after that pet would have expired in nature.
 
johnwilliamson062 wrote:

..... Some years back ODNR commissioned a study of the effects of the expanding coyote population on deer. Someone had touted coyotes as a solution to the expanding deer population. The study stated there was no evidence of coyotes killing a healthy deer.


I wouldn't trust that study as far as I can spit!

I've personally witnessed coyotes trail tracking healthy deer.
Don't believe for a minute they wanted to just say a friendly hello.
 
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Originally posted by Pahoo:

In Iowa, it is illegal to shoot a deer that has been hit by an automobile.

Same here.....like putting down a deer during hunting season when you do not intend to legally tag and claim it.

Originally posted by Blindstitch:

With the cellphone age it would be easy to take a quick video of the animal suffering to cover yourself if it comes to it. Then dispatch of the animal.

With that same cellphone, one can contact the necessary officials and get the permission to dispatch or told to wait.

I help teach Hunter Safety. This question comes up nearly every time we have "Warden Night". Comes down to the fact that what is ethical, is not always legal and vice-versa. Ethics tells us that putting down an injured animal is ending it's suffering. According to the wardens, not everyone with a gun is capable of determining if that injury warrants being euthanized. A warden hears a gunshot in the woods and goes to find a hunter without a tag standing over a dead deer they just shot, what are they to suspect? Even if the deer was wounded previously, how does the warden know if that same hunter isn't the one that originally wounded it and was actively trailing it. While a car hit deer can be different, do we really want any Joe Blow with a CWC license trying to put down a injured and moving deer with his occasionally shot CWC gun with other folks standing around? Is it not the right thing to do and inform authorities of an animal in distress first and being told how to progress? Does one want to take the risk of an $1800 fine, and the loss of their weapon and hunting privileges to end the suffering of an animal a few minutes earlier? These are not my thoughts and opinions, but the thoughts and opinions of our state and the Wardens working in it. I don't always agree with them, but I do consider them if and when I am faced with the scenario. Over the 50+ years of hunting deer, I have arrowed a coupla bucks that I thought were dead deer walking after seeing the hit and following the blood trail. I never recovered those animals and thought for sure they were coyote bait. Both of them were seen later in the season and acting as if nothing had ever happened to them. Even tho at some point, odds are they were sick enough to be unable to get up and run very far. Would someone else, hunting with a shotgun the next day, finding them laying in their bed, fevered and weak, legitimately be putting them out of their misery? How many of us have watched loved one suffer for months with a terminal disease and wanted for it somehow to end? What keeps us from helping them, other than the law? Is it more ethical to allow a human to suffer than an animal or is it the law that prevents us? Why are animals any different?

I am not preaching ethics to anyone. Ethics are personal. Ethics is doing the right thing when no-one else is around. What I am preaching is knowing the laws in your state and the consequences you may face if you break them, even if in your heart you know you are right. Every scenario is different and every one needs to be seriously considered before one takes out their gun and pulls the trigger. While I don't know how I would handle every scenario, I do know I would do what I thought was right.......and if it turned out to be illegal, I certainly wouldn't brag about it on the internet.

Just sayin'.......
 
That being said, I take no issue with the humane dispatching of an animals be it stock, game or simply a suffering animal. I have killed for all three reasons, life has taugh me to do it swiftly and as painlessly as possible. Is there empathy for the death of an animal, yes for me, for you maybe thats not the right word. Would I take issue in the future of dispatching a wounded, no.

Me too. Have no issue with it at all. Have killed for all 3 reasons as well and will for all 3 reasons again and with a large emphasis on making it as swift as possible. I find the killing of stock and injured animals unpleasant but necessary, if I can't do that then I shouldn't eat them. I have empathy for the animal; sucks to be stock, sucks to be injured, sucks to get caught but that's the game. (That is the human point of view, the animals seem content to be what they are)

Empathy IS the right word for me, I just don't confuse my feelings with the animal's feelings (anymore, seems to be quite natural to do that). I can separate them, and they are indeed separate and different, and to people who cannot do this I appear calloused and lacking of empathy.


If I had just been hit by a car and my guts were strune across two lanes I sure are heck hope someone would put the barrel behind my ear and be done with it.

Were you an animal, a human would be by shortly to do just that. Since you are a human though, nobody would dare do it, even though we are the only creature that can reason out the scenario and wish for death. Ironic eh?

I can say I've never killed an animal that wanted to be killed, no matter how bad it was already hurt. I feel justified for dispatching the animal but I'm clearly overriding any input it may have.

Ive watch many animals die many different ways and so try to pursued someone to think that animal doesnt know whats going on is absurd.

Me too, and when I approach they know exactly what's going on and they don't like it. Prey knows the game. I think humans have a hard time understanding it. Also ironic.
 
Ethics tells us that putting down an injured animal is ending it's suffering. According to the wardens, not everyone with a gun is capable of determining if that injury warrants being euthanized. A warden hears a gunshot in the woods and goes to find a hunter without a tag standing over a dead deer they just shot, what are they to suspect? Even if the deer was wounded previously, how does the warden know if that same hunter isn't the one that originally wounded it and was actively trailing it. While a car hit deer can be different, do we really want any Joe Blow with a CWC license trying to put down a injured and moving deer with his occasionally shot CWC gun with other folks standing around? Is it not the right thing to do and inform authorities of an animal in distress first and being told how to progress? Does one want to take the risk of an $1800 fine, and the loss of their weapon and hunting privileges to end the suffering of an animal a few minutes earlier? These are not my thoughts and opinions, but the thoughts and opinions of our state and the Wardens working in it. I don't always agree with them, but I do consider them if and when I am faced with the scenario. Over the 50+ years of hunting deer, I have arrowed a coupla bucks that I thought were dead deer walking after seeing the hit and following the blood trail. I never recovered those animals and thought for sure they were coyote bait. Both of them were seen later in the season and acting as if nothing had ever happened to them. Even tho at some point, odds are they were sick enough to be unable to get up and run very far. Would someone else, hunting with a shotgun the next day, finding them laying in their bed, fevered and weak, legitimately be putting them out of their misery? How many of us have watched loved one suffer for months with a terminal disease and wanted for it somehow to end? What keeps us from helping them, other than the law? Is it more ethical to allow a human to suffer than an animal or is it the law that prevents us? Why are animals any different?

I am not preaching ethics to anyone. Ethics are personal. Ethics is doing the right thing when no-one else is around. What I am preaching is knowing the laws in your state and the consequences you may face if you break them, even if in your heart you know you are right. Every scenario is different and every one needs to be seriously considered before one takes out their gun and pulls the trigger. While I don't know how I would handle every scenario, I do know I would do what I thought was right.......and if it turned out to be illegal, I certainly wouldn't brag about it on the internet.

Great points
 
legality and ethics do not go hand in hand. there is a lot of overlap in some areas but also a lot of divergence.
for example(keep it hunting related), I know I can make just as clean of a kill on a turkey with a 223, as I can with a shotgun, and in that instance it's either a hit/kill or a complete miss, rather than the turkey catching a few pellets and surviving in pain despite it, yet the state I live in says I am only allowed to use a shotgun. similarly, I am allowed to hunt grouse with a 22lr, yet a pheasant which is the exact same size and is way more skiddish and harder to get within effective shotgun range, is shotgun only... lots of double standards and pointless arbitrary limitations.

with that said, I hate to see animals suffering and I have made illegal finishing shots, to end the suffering of wounded animals. it's rough, but letting the animal suffer while the county spends 30 minutes dispatching a cop to do the same thing is far less ethical in my opinion.

now although I agree with a lot of the quoted post above, I would like to address a few key portions.
While a car hit deer can be different, do we really want any Joe Blow with a CWC license trying to put down a injured and moving deer with his occasionally shot CWC gun with other folks standing around?
on the flip side of that, do we want some police officer who fires his gun once a year to show he knows where to point the gun doing the exact same thing? not this is just arguing semantics and citing euphamisns, and anecdotes, but it seems like where I'm from, most cops really are not gun guys, and shoot only when the dept makes them to prove competence. is joe blow with a CWC any less practiced? I've taken a few CWL classes and they were absolute travesties to the art of firearms instruction, but anyone I know who has also taken them has also recognized this and continued to practice on their own time to improve, even if the class did not give any firearms instruction. I would take any of their skills to put down a wounded animal over officer blow anyday.
I have arrowed a coupla bucks that I thought were dead deer walking after seeing the hit and following the blood trail. I never recovered those animals and thought for sure they were coyote bait. Both of them were seen later in the season and acting as if nothing had ever happened to them. Even tho at some point, odds are they were sick enough to be unable to get up and run very far.
this is a good point. my younger brother has shot elk with completely atrophied legs that were shot the year prior, as well as deer with large puss sacks inside the ribcage where poorly placed shots went through without hitting any vitals and got infected. I've shot deer that had both legs on one side taken out with a single poorly placed shot. some animals can handle a lot of punishment. I've also killed animals that had no discernable wound track at all, no blood, no bruising, no broken bones, just a shot followed by a dead animal. the amount of suffering is really at the discretion of the beholder. personally I would like to put down half of the poor animals that are constantly being dragged to the vet with injuries and health conditions that obviously cause the animal to suffer, but the owners refuse to let their pets go, and instead make them suffer on.

now here is where I get preachy.
Ethics are personal
actually they are not. I've been forced to take so many ethics courses I can just about quote every possible definition of ethics that exists. Ethics are not personal. Morals are personal. your morals are your personally held beliefs which guide your behavior and cause you to make decisions based on what you think is right. Ethics are an agreed upon set of morally acceptable behaviors among a group of people based on the most prolifically held sets of morals. as an example, in large cities like NY, it is very common to basically use interns as slave labor, no pay, no benefits, and having 10 people competing for one open position. just about everywhere else in the country, interns are very well paid, almost on par with the people who hold permanent positions and there are rarely more than 2 people competing for one open position. although me might find it morally reprehensible to have someone work for 12 weeks for a company completely without pay only to get the boot, this is ethically acceptable in the cities where this is common practice.

given this definition of ethics, I think there is a common set of hunting ethics that everyone agrees to, even though our personal morals might differ greatly.
 
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as some one that has put down a hit bull elk and got a fine for it I can tell you that the line is very grey and with out clear boarders.

I was in Oregon coming home from a fishing trip. Some one had hit an elk and left. The bull spine was broken. it was trying to run away but with out back legs it was not doing well. One of its front legs was also broken it was not doing the bull much good as it was a visable compound fracture. This was on a freeway on a rainy day with lots of cars going by. The only gun I had at the time was a Ruger 10/22. I stopped the car and put the elk down and dragged it off the road (not an easy task in heavy rain and still feeling a little sick from traveling).

I then called the police and reported it (I have been told this was my mistake). I was told that they all ready had to reports and to stay there. I did as I was told.

I ended up going to court. They dropped the poaching charge and the charge of discharging a fire arm with in a city limits. but they kept the charge of hunting elk with a 22 (cant remember the name right now).

The prosecuting attorney threatened many things. I was facing jail time and several thousand dollars in fines. I ended up getting the minimum fine of $75.00 for the 22.

Would I do it again? I am not sure I would. I know its the ethical thing to do. But Feeding my family is also the ethical thing to do.

I have also been told that I should of put the bull down and left but if I ran I am sure things would have been worse, the police already had my licence plate number from some one that reported me.

Ethics and the Law do not always match up.
 
The study stated there was no evidence of coyotes killing a healthy deer. Healthy was specified because there were plenty of cases of them taking wounded animals.

Either the study was inadequate, deliberately lied, or most likely, the person writing the repost has a FLAWED understanding of English.

The lack of a single word can change the entire meaning of a sentence, and the way people react to it.

As written, it leads people to believe that coyotes do not kill healthy deer. Many of us know that to be untrue, from direct personal experience. Healthy deer, being harder to catch, means it happens less often, but it still happens.

if the person writing the report had included the single word "found" then their statement would be fact, not fiction.

"NO EVIDENCE OF ...WAS FOUND.." or "We found no evidence..."
this is NOT saying anything more than the study (or court, or whatever) didn't find certain data. It does not mean the that what they were looking for does not exist. It means they didn't FIND it. That's ALL it means.
 
“There’s no evidence coyotes prey on adult deer,” says Kilgo. The concern is with fawns, particularly in their first week of life when they are most vulnerable.

Read more: http://www.petersenshunting.com/predators/are-coyotes-killing-your-deer/#ixzz4WjOrwrCA
The study discussed in that article is not the one I saw before. When one is discussing the "evidence" in a study on wild animals, I think most accept the found as implied/assumed. It is obviously impossible to perform an exhaustive study on every deer in an area. I did omit the bit about fawns, which I was aware of, but in the study I read specific to Ohio I believe they indicated the fawns taken were believed to have been separated from their mothers prior to coyotes being involved.
The study in that article is much more recent than the one I read and seems to have used better methodology in tracking fawns.
Not to say it NEVER happens, just as I am sure a hook off the number ten tee has at some point killed a mature deer. The evidence(found if you need the clarification) simply doesn't support it occurring at a significant frequency.
My point is they found evidence of many injured deer being taken by coyotes. The injured deer weren't dying over the course of a month from excruciating infections. That simply isn't how nature works.
 
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The bottom line, seems to me, is to know the pertinent laws. Your first priority is to protect your freedom and billfold, above any ethics of ending the suffering of a wounded animal.

Absent legal restrictions, end the suffering ASAP.
 
I have killed several wounded animals, hit by cars and by slob hunters.

I killed 2 elk with my 10mm pistol, during an elk season when I had no tag. I called DOW ASAP. One officer was all jacked up and wanted to arrest me, the other would not let him and I did not even get a written warning. In fact the senior officer thanked me for my actions.

I have also tracked wounded animals that other people hit, and killed them, reported to DOW and never had an issue.

I hit a 4 pt bull with my truck, it was not dead and I shot it. CSP and DOW had no issue with it. They only asked if I shot in a safe direction...being on a highway and all. My Mom said it was the best tasting elk we ever got.

I even shot a Deer in the middle of a city with an officer standing right beside me who could not pull the trigger on her pistol.

I hate to see animals suffer and if I can get LE or Wildlife there in a reasonable time, fine. If I can not, I will end it and report it. Legally, many of the things I have done were not acceptable. I will admit I was pretty tense the first time I was in this type of a situation, but now, not as much. Hunting as much as I do, I am sure it will happen again. I teach my boys and the folks I teach to hunt in the same way. One of my hunting friends shot an illegal deer (not enough points) and called DOW, self reported and got a $61 ticket and went on to kill a legal deer. He told me that if it was not for hunting with me and how I deal with things, he might have gotten jammed up. But, IMHO, you do the right thing, all the time, every time. It might cost you a tad here and there, but in the long-run, you will come out ahead.
 
coyote

Likely going to sidetrack this thread....

I have personally, on more than one occasion, seen coyotes running deer, both fawns, yearings and mature animals. They hunt in packs, they run them in relays and with "flankers and drivers", and they are good at it. They are especially hard on birthed fawns, despite natures gift of allowing the fawns to get moving shortly after being dropped. What ever wildlife outfit says they are not is not keeping up.

In an attempt to get back on track, when working, I went to many, many, car v. deer accidents, and occasionally, there would be a stricken deer still on scene. Legally, no one could put the animal down, in fact, it was prohibited for many years, for anyone to even possess a firearm in a NP/Parkway unless it was stored according to law. If someone dispatched an animal, I never raised an eyebrow if all else was on the up and up. Not everybody operated that way, but I did.

A story....I went to a call for a deer v. car, and when I arrived, there were two vehicles present, the striking vehicle with some college girls, and a bubba truck with 2 good ol'boys. As I swung into the parking area, a deer got up in the headlights, ran about 30 ft, and turned tail over tincups.....it was tied to a flagpole with a length of rope. The boys wanted the deer, but knew it was illegal for them to put it down and haul it off, so they tied it up and waited for the Rangers. I told them I could not shoot it with the angles and facilities nearby involved, but to release it and I would shoot it as it ran off and got in the clear. They agreed. I struck my best Marshall Dillon pose, and said I was ready.....they wrestled it down and released it...and I went back to doing the paperwork....never drew nor shot. They were REALLY upset and roared off.

Looked like it was getting along just fine .!!!!!
 
1. There is nothing wrong with dispatching a mortally wounded animal to keep it from dying a lingering death.

2. Wounded and sick prey animals are often eaten. This is part of natural selection. It helps keep populations healthy.

Hope that helps.
 
I have seen several deer operating fine on three legs over the years. Not sure whether it was from a car or poor shot.

But, that was before coyotes came in to the area so I don't know how they deal with that.

At any rate, if they don't appear to have any internal injury and they can get around I don't take it upon myself to do away with them.
 
1. There is nothing wrong with dispatching a mortally wounded animal to keep it from dying a lingering death.

I realize you are new to this forum but this is the 3rd time today you have posted bad advise (2 times it was bad legal advise). In this case, dispatching a wounded animal in many states IS a criminal offense.
 
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