Kill vs. Murder vs. "Rights"

It is funny, but my grandfather's words are coming back to me. "... five reasons why you put your hands on (use force) on another... one, defense of self... two, defense of innocents (family, community, etc.)... three, defense of nation... four training for one of the first three... and finally, because they asked you to. (The most pleasurable IMHO)
His rather 'common sense' approach fits just about every legal definition I have ever seen. Not too shabby from a guy who only completed the fifth grade. He is sorely missed by me, as are nearly all of his contemporaries, 'The Greatest Generation.'
 
Your friend is first wrong in saying that killing an assailant is not murder, because it most certainly is. This fact also makes his entire argument invalid

Here we have a difference of opinion, considering what words mean. And even various states have different opinions about this, as evidenced by the different state's terms for the death of a person.

Killing
Murder
Homicide
Manslaughter

and likely some other terms can be applied as well. States use different terms in their definitions of crimes, and it has been pretty well covered by some of the previous posts. The circumstances and the intent play a huge part in what term is legally applied, and what word should be used in regular conversation, as well. What matters is how we define the terms amongst ourselves, and how the law defines them, as well.

The definitions ought to be the same, but often aren't, especially in casual conversation.

The fact is that when someone dies as a result of the action or inaction of another, the only thing that is consistent is that someone died.

I define murder as killing profit. It can be monetary, or emotional, but it is there before the killing is done. Killing for survival (self defense) is different, to me. (also different to our legal system). A death is still involved, but everything else is different.

The opinion that killing someone is always murder (no matter the additional circumstances) is, I believe, an incorrect use of the word. All our laws, including the rules governing warfare make a distinction between killing, and murder. We should do the same in general conversation.
 
Unfortunately, our "friends" in the media are complicit in spreading the misapprehension that "kill" is the same as "murder." How many times have we seen news articles about the police having to shoot some "young adult" career criminal because he was caught in the act of committing a felony and decided to try to shoot it out with the cops, and the decadent's loving mother is routinely quoted to the effect that, "The police murdered my son. They could have tazed him or used tear gas, they didn't had [ sic ] to murder my son."

Yes, they are quoting a bereaved mother. But the statement is so obviously wrong in most of these cases that I have to wonder why they would print or report a quote like that ... unless, of course, they want us to believe that the police murdered an innocent armed felon, or because they themselves simply don't understand the distinction between "kill" and "murder."
 
Code:
Unfortunately, our "friends" in the media are complicit in spreading the misapprehension that "kill" is the same as "murder." How many times have we seen news articles about the police having to shoot some "young adult" career criminal because he was caught in the act of committing a felony and decided to try to shoot it out with the cops, and the decadent's loving mother is routinely quoted to the effect that, "The police murdered my son. They could have tazed him or used tear gas, they didn't had [ sic ] to murder my son."

Yes, they are quoting a bereaved mother. But the statement is so obviously wrong in most of these cases that I have to wonder why they would print or report a quote like that ... unless, of course, they want us to believe that the police murdered an innocent armed felon, or because they themselves simply don't understand the distinction between "kill" and "murder."

Ever miss journalists like Joe Rosenthal? I do.
 
Yellow Journalism is recognized as a significant contributing factor in causing the Spanish American War.

Things have, if anything, gotten worse, since. Our "news" media is driven by, essentially, the profit motive. Anything and everything that increases people's desire to view the news increases their profits. Today, it is all grist for the mill.

Accuracy of description is long gone, and even obvious lies are passed out as gospel truth these days. Even the proper use of basic English is ignored in favor of reporting that increases emotional unrest in the public.

The Zimmerman case is a perfect example of media bias, both in the decisions of what to air (and how it was edited) as well as the focus on everything else but the fact that shooting someone who is pounding your skull into the pavement might be justified...
 
Killing vs murder or homicide...

To me, killing in self defense or in the defense of another person or group of people(armed robbery, arson, WMD type terrorism, etc) is not murder.
It's not a ethical issue or moral problem if you can justify your acts or reasons to a jury of your peers(or IAW a review board or formal investigation if you are in armed professions).
In some states & juristdictions(like mine), which says you must provide the Div of Licensing with the LE report of a use-of-force incident(deadly force) within 5/five days of the event(G or armed security officer).
A concealed carry license or firearms permit is not a "license to kill".
You, as a armed citizen, are not sanctioned to use lethal force or allowed to be exempt from any state law or statue re: firearms or deadly force.
If you want to discuss the moral or ethical issues related to murder or killing(lethal force), Id suggest reading LTC Dave Grossman's non-fiction books: On Killing & On Combat.
Grossman, a retired US Army officer & PhD, researched killing, PTSD/stress, skill training(conditioning), and other factors related to death.
The US 2A as well as state-local gun laws allow citizens to bear arms or carry weapons for protection. These are lawful and you won't be convicted of criminal charges if you are prudent & understand your legal rights.
 
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If there was a "right to kill" in the world, I'd venture to say that the population would be cut by half.
I'm not a lawyer but I do know my rights as a citizen.
I have the right to keep & bear arms, which I do, on my person, every day.
I have a right to be secure of my life, property & papers.
I have the right NOT to be killed or gravely injured by another person.
I have the right to defend my life, property & papers.
If I have to defend that, and in that defense, deadly force is used & my attacker is killed, then I know that I will have to face the consequences of my actions. I'm willing to accept that.
That being said, I do not wish to take another human life. To do so would be the most repugnant thing I could ever do.
 
Property....

In my state & in many other juristdictions, you can use lethal force to defend yourself and/or others but you can't use lethal force to protect your property.
For example, if you wake up and hear strange noises, go down to your living room & see a crook holding your HDTV you can't shoot him. If you yell; "GET OUT!" & they flee, you can't open up & shoot them down as they run.

Id review the incident in OK City of the small business owner & USAF veteran who shot 2 young stick-up men.
The shop owner/pharmacist was convicted for shooting the robbers partly due to the fact that he used excessive force(shooting the wounded subject repeatedly).
He's now in prison because he didnt follow OK state laws, re: guns/lethal force.
 
Clyde Frog said:
Id review the incident in OK City of the small business owner & USAF veteran who shot 2 young stick-up men.
The shop owner/pharmacist was convicted for shooting the robbers partly due to the fact that he used excessive force(shooting the wounded subject repeatedly).
He's now in prison because he didnt follow OK state laws, re: guns/lethal force.
Bad example, IMHO.

First, that was a daytime robbery of a business, not a home invasion falling under traditional castle doctrine, which looks very favorably on a person's right to defend his home. Most states (I think) seem to pretty much agree that anyone found inside your house without your permission is automatically considered to be a threat and thus is fair game for deadly force, irrespective of whether he's holding your television or a Gatling gun.

Second, the pharmacist was convicted because he emptied a second firearm into a wounded (perhaps critically or even fatally) robber long after the threat had ended. If you recall, the pharmacist shot one robber, then chased the second robber out the door and for some distance. Only then did the pharmacist re-enter the store, look at the first robber lying on the floor (off camera because he fell where a counter blocked the camera view, so we don't know if he was moving or not), calmly walked past him to his work area, switched guns, then walked back and emptied the second gun into the already wounded robber.

And then he lied about it in his statements to the police. Not a good example at all.
 
Posted by Aquila Blanca: Most states (I think) seem to pretty much agree that anyone found inside your house without your permission is automatically considered to be a threat and thus is fair game for deadly force, irrespective of whether he's holding your television or a Gatling gun.

Not this again. Read this.

Relevant excerpts:

The basic principle is that someone who is in his or own house is given certain presumptions regarding the justification of the use of force against an unlawful intruder that would not apply somewhere else.

As in the case of the duty to retreat and the right to not retreat (to "stand your ground"), castle doctrine provisions are variously defined in state codes and in appellate court rulings (legal precedent). One should never rely on a layman's reading of the code, or on any one statute taken out of context.

Provisions vary from one jurisdiction to another. In general, however, "castle doctrine" laws and rulings do the following:

They provide a resident or his or her guest with a presumption that an unlawful entry by an intruder gives the occupant reason to believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to defend against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm; that belief is one of the fundamental requirements of a defense of justification for the use of deadly force;

they establish clearly that, once the conditions for justification have been met, there is no duty to retreat within or from the domicile in the event of an attack by an unlawful intruder.​

Castle doctrine laws DO NOT provide a resident with a carte blanche right to employ deadly force simply because someone has entered a domicile unlawfully. The aforementioned presumption is rebuttable: if the intruder does not pose a serious threat or has ceased to do so, the use of deadly force is not justified. Essentially, what the castle doctrine really does is reduce the burden on the defender to provide evidence supporting a reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary.

It must be emphasized that castle doctrine protection is not automatic. The defender will have to establish that he or she knew, or had reason to believe, that the thresholds for castle doctrine justification (for example, the fact of a forcible and unlawful entry) had been met. The physical evidence may clearly support that, or it may not.
 
I had to read the first post several times , and still couldn't get the gist of where the debate was.

It really IS about the words , and words do have specific meanings.

There IS a right to self defense , and to certain extent defense of others ( not going into details at this time).

In many jurisdictions citizens can lawfully carry firearms, for among various reasons , to assist in self defense.

In such situations at times potentially lethal force is justified. This would be a firearm, but could also be other potentially lethal options.

When using force in self defense , the goal is to cause the threat to you to cease. If that occurs w/o injury to assailent, fine. If the attack continues , but assailent dies next week in the hospital from complications it didn't acomplish your imeadate goal. The decision making by the defender is as to the type of force used, the ultimate health disposition of the attacker is an indirect byproduct not imeadately known or controled by the defender.

Self Defense is a Positive Defense. The defendent acknowledeges that they did particular action delibertly, and that it was justified. This would be if resulted in a death, or various assult charges, or whatever.

Anytime a human being dies as result of actions of another human being, it is Homicide.

Homicide could be justified or excusable.

IT could be a form of Manslaughter ( at least two flavors , some states have additional flavors by statute ).

It could be a form of Murder ( at least two , some states also have 3rd degree Homicide by statute.
 
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