Kerrville Police Shooting Caught On Tape

I'm sure the Grand Jury was provided with much, much more information then the rampid speculation shown on this thread so far. :cool:
 
Life as a spectator sport is quite simple,
as a particpant it gets a bit more complicated.

TBO, I think you are wasting your time.

allan
 
I'm sure the Grand Jury was provided with much, much more information then the rampid speculation shown on this thread so far.
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I do not believe that Grand Jurys do anything other than what the prosecutor wants them to do. Rarely will they go against the wishes of the prosecutor. There is more than enough evidence of that to be convincing. If the evidence had been provided to an impartial jury I would agree with you, but Grand Jury's are not the least bit convincing.

It was known he was armed, he threatened to kill himself, and before he was stopped, he was contacted by his cell phone where he threatened to kill the Police and a few others.
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Where does this information come from? I would like to see it since it would definitely have a bearing on the shooting.
 
Suicidal party with a beef with the Police isn't concern enough?
confused.gif
 
You specifically said that he threatened to kill cops. That would be a definite factor in the shooting. Did he in fact threaten to kill cops?
 
Yes butch, we get it. you woudn't shoot. the officer who did is an idiot. no amount of discussion will change your mind. how many posts do you have in this thread?
 
Just now saw this post...I wonder where the LEO was aiming? Im guessing his cranium...was he just trying to neutralize him by shooting the jaw area. Serious question, i know the guy could probably put that bullet wherever he wanted. Just the thought i had after watching it...i probably would have gone for a heart or head shot myself on this dumb*ss.
 
Butch50. Do you consider yourself a rational individual? I am going to assume your answer is yes and continue. As a rational individual, do you consider a suicidal man, armed with a firearm in your presence, as a threat to you or those whose safety is your responsibility?
You seem preoccupied with likelihoods rather than possibilities. Is it likely the individual would have hit an officer if he had suddenly turned and "snapshot", no. Is it possible, yes.
Therefore, why would the officer allow for that possibility? It makes no difference that the individul was suicidal, (he was suicidal because he was facing charges of illegal contact with a child), it also makes no difference if this individual did or did not threaten police before the incident we witnessed on video. HE WAS THREATENING THEM ON THE VIDEO. How you ask? He exited his vehicle with a firearm, turned away from officers as if to conceal manipulation of his 22 auto, and failed to follow their commands.
Certainly we all wish for a better outcome, but wishful thinking does not make it so. This individual was intent on being lawless, why should law enforcement put themselves at risk faced with this situation? If he were Armed with a knife you would have an arguement, but it was a 22 auto.
I am trying to understand your logic, but I am having a very hard time. I feel you lack empathy for those on the scene in harms way. I enthusiastically await your answers.
 
2rugers: You have posted one of the better posts on this thread supporting the shooting. In fact your position is quite compelling.

Here are the facts, as far as I have been able to sort them out.

1. Citizen (C for short) is talking to cop on phone and threatens suicide.
2. Cops are dispatched to his location to....I assume to stop him from killing himself.
3. C is lawfully driving his car when pulled over by cops that had been dispatched.
4. C sits in car while cops take up position behind him, and presumably barricaded behind their vehicle(s) with guns out and drawn. So far C has not committed any criminal acts that the cops are aware of and has remained in his car.
5. Cops yell at C to exit car, and he does. Start the stopwatch here.
6. Cops repeatedly yell ta C to raise his hands, he does not do so - but he also does nothing threatening.
7. By this point one of the cops has a bead on Cs head with a rifle - at 30 feet with or without a scope the cop (assuming he is aiming at Cs head and not at his torso) can not see Cs hands due to the sight picture that he is maintaining.
8. C apparently pulls a small pistol from his waistband.
9. Cops yell repeatedly at C to drop it, but C does not drop it.
10. C is holding a small pistol and standing completely exposed, he has at least 3 pistols and one rifle aimed at him from barricaded positions 30 feet away. C is suicidal, but and some fill in the blank here - has apparently not made any threatening comments other than against himself?
11. C has his hands in front of his waist, with right hand - which is the hand away from the cops - holding a small pistol.
12. Shot fired from rifle. Stop the clock there - 7 seconds.

No other shots were fired, so three of the four cops did not feel immediately threatened. The cop that did shoot could not actually see what was going on if he was holding a head shot sight picture. C survives the shot. C is not charged with anything other than a misdemeanor weapons possession. C is not charged with resisting arrest, nor with attacking police officers, not even with a speeding ticket. In fact, did the cops even have the legal right to stop him and make him get out of his car at that point? Maybe someone with knowledge of the law can answer that....

My opinion is that the cop that shot, shot too soon. Possibly out of fear for his life, although I have a hard time with that one since no one else shot, and possibly out of too much adrenaline. My vote is for too much adrenaline, and cops that can not control themselves in situations like that, need to find another job.

One other interest I have in this thread though isn't about the shooting itself. It is about how some people apparently can't stand to be disagreed with. They act emotionally immature and angry. That is a very interesting phenomenon for people who live in a society that guarantees individual freedom to disagree with others. My taking issue with this shooting has gotten some otherwise mature sounding individuals to react in some very strange ways. Not to mention some who are obvioulsy trying to stir the pot.
 
assumption
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
1 a : the taking up of a person into heaven b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2 : a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
3 : the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4 : ARROGANCE, PRETENSION
5 a : an assuming that something is true b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted
6 : the taking over of another's debts



Originally posted by: butch50

2. Cops are dispatched to his location to....I assume to stop him from killing himself. (it starts)

4. C sits in car while cops take up position behind him, and presumably barricaded behind their vehicle(s) with guns out and drawn. So far C has not committed any criminal acts that the cops are aware of and has remained in his car.

6. Cops repeatedly yell ta C to raise his hands, he does not do so - but he also does nothing threatening.

7. By this point one of the cops has a bead on Cs head with a rifle - at 30 feet with or without a scope the cop (assuming he is aiming at Cs head and not at his torso) can not see Cs hands due to the sight picture that he is maintaining.

10. C is holding a small pistol and standing completely exposed, he has at least 3 pistols and one rifle aimed at him from barricaded positions 30 feet away. C is suicidal, but can someone fill in the blank here(been done, but some refuse to take the answer, preferring speculation) - has apparently not made any threatening comments other than against himself?

No other shots were fired, so three of the four cops did not feel immediately threatened.
The cop that did shoot could not actually see what was going on if he was holding a head shot sight picture.

In fact, did the cops even have the legal right to stop him and make him get out of his car at that point? ( :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Your complete lack of knowledge of this subject hasn't kept you from posting "How things are/should be"...)
Maybe someone with knowledge of the law can answer that.... (some have, but you don't want to hear what they've said repeatedly)

My opinion is that the cop that shot, shot too soon. Possibly out of fear for his life, although I have a hard time with that one since no one else shot, and possibly out of too much adrenaline. My vote (bias actually) is for too much adrenaline, and cops that can not control themselves in situations like that, need to find another job. (and here we have the big finish, the cumulation of your above statement. Being that it's based on speculation and assumption, it's really a CONCLUSION in search of an ARGUMENT, thus, BIAS.

We get it butch, you don't like Cops. Well that is really too bad. It must make for an unhappy life to have such a strong/broad dislike of any group.
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Nice post TBO, very nice. Did you ever find that source for the cell phone call where he threatened to shoot cops? Do you know if there was legal cause to pull him over in the first place?
 
Butch. The suspect was on the phone in his house with an investigator who was questioning him about the illegal contact with a child charge. The suspect told the investigator he was going to kill himself and hung up the phone. The investigator notified patrol officers of the conversation and that is why they stopped him. Suicide is illegal in Texas. The police, given the situation, were to arrest him to insure he does not harm himself, to insure he stands trial for the pending charge and most importantly, to insure he does not harm anyone else, Maybe the child he is alleged to have had illegal contact with.
You said, was there legal cause to pull him over in the first place? There was, but if there had not been, he still illegally threatened officers by failing to follow commands and exiting his vehicle with a firearm. Are you going to answer my questions as I have yours, or keep beating the bush? Rational, reasonable, possibility.#9 in your previous post really sums up the whole situation. And last but not least, as THEEBADONE has clearly pointed out, you assume far to much and assumptions get good people killed.
 
2rugers, sorry but which question did I not answer? Please remind me and I will.

TBO quite clearly wrote that "It was known he was armed, he threatened to kill himself, and before he was stopped, he was contacted by his cell phone where he threatened to kill the Police and a few others." Which would put the cops state of mind in a whole different place, than it would be if they were trying to keep him from killing himself. I would like to see that backed up. If he in fact told the cops that he was going to kill a cop then it is far more understandable that he was shot, than if he had only threatened to kill himself.

Additionally I don't think threatening suicide is illegal. I don't find a reference to attempted suicide to being illegal in Texas, and I would guess that suicide itself wouldn't be illegal since there would be no one to prosecute.

Whether or not there was a legal basis for the traffic stop is a valid question. Based on what you are saying, that he announced that he was goint to kill himself, I don't see the legal rationale for stopping him.
 
Butch50. Do you consider yourself a rational individual? YES I am going to assume your answer is yes and continue. As a rational individual, do you consider a suicidal man, armed with a firearm in your presence, as a threat to you or those whose safety is your responsibility? NO MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE AND LESS THAN OTHERS - SUICIDAL INDICATES THAT HE IS INTERESTED IN HARMING HIMSELF, IF HE WANTED TO HARM OTHERS HE WOULD LIKELY ALREADY HAVE TRIED.
You seem preoccupied with likelihoods rather than possibilities. Is it likely the individual would have hit an officer if he had suddenly turned and "snapshot", no. Is it possible, yes. LIKELY NO, POSSIBLE YES.
Therefore, why would the officer allow for that possibility? BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE TO STOP A SUICIDE, NOT KILL A SUICIDE. It makes no difference that the individul was suicidal, (he was suicidal because he was facing charges of illegal contact with a child), it also makes no difference if this individual did or did not threaten police before the incident we witnessed on video. HE WAS THREATENING THEM ON THE VIDEO. How you ask? He exited his vehicle with a firearm, turned away from officers as if to conceal manipulation of his 22 auto, and failed to follow their commands.
Certainly we all wish for a better outcome, but wishful thinking does not make it so. This individual was intent on being lawless, why should law enforcement put themselves at risk faced with this situation? If he were Armed with a knife you would have an arguement, but it was a 22 auto.
I am trying to understand your logic, but I am having a very hard time. I feel you lack empathy for those on the scene in harms way. I enthusiastically await your answers.

MY ANSWERS IN CAPS AND BOLD not to add emphasis but to make them easily found in the text. I still have two unasnwered questions, where did the reference to killing cops come from, and was there even a legal basis for stopping him?
 
Origionally posted by: butch50

I say it is a bad shooting. The cops had him surrounded, the cops were behind cover, he was armed with a small pistol standing in the open with the gun pointed at the ground, he had not raised the pistol up, much less taken aim. At the point that he was shot, absolutley no danger was presented to the cops. Odds are that if the cops had allowed him to take careful aim and fire he wouldn't have hit a thing at that distance with that pistol. With them behind cover and covering him with rifles, they weren't in danger.

It looks like a cop got trigger happy

we have a trigger happy cop running around Texas thinking he acted like a hero

I would have waited at least until he presented an immedieate threat. Look at that video, at no point did he present an immediate threat.

at the point that he was shot he was not threatening anyone, not even himself.

At the point that he was shot he had not raised the weapon to a horizontal position. At the point that he was shot, he was basically just standing there. Until he rasied the gun to at least horizontal the cops had no idea if he was going to surrender or attack.

At the point that he was shot, he had not shown any attempt to shoot at the police.

The cop that shot him said "he was in fear for his life". I call BS on that cop. He wasn't in fear of losing his life, he was trigger happy.

Anything is possible, but when I look at the video I say the shot came before it was clearly necessary. If a cop is going to try and kill someone, it should be clearly necessary before he tries.

At that range and with a rifle, the cop should have made a better shot too. He should should have made a clean kill. The cop is not only trigger happy, he isn't a good shot. (that part was an absolute gem!)

There are numerous people on this thread who apparently idolize Law Enforcment. These people put cops on a pedestal, to them cops can do no wrong, they are like Gods to these people.

They appear not to realize (or want to believe) that cops are simply people, just like everyone else. Cops put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everyone else. There are people out there in cop uniforms that should not be in those uniforms - they are the kind of people who react poorly under stress. Being a cop is not for everyone just as being an athelete is not for everyone. It is for the kind of person who is naturally cool under pressure, has the ability to think clearly under stress, and to make good decisions instantly. That is not your every day Joe six pack. A good cop is not in the middle of the bell curve.

All you have to do is watch this video to realize that the cop who shot, shot surprisingly too soon, and poorly on top of that. He is not the kind of person that should be a cop, getting into stressful stiuations. The other 3 cops showed better judgement and coolness under pressure. Unless you are one of those cop worshipers that believes that all cops are Gods, the one who shot in this situation is not fit to be a cop. That puts him into the middle of the bell curve.

Everything you say here is entirely reasonable and even probable. The problem I have with the shooting is that watching the video (my opinion) is that the shot came too soon. It came before I would have made it.....My opinion is based on what I can see in the video, and what little info there is in the reports I could find. (exactly, it's not based on real world experiance and training)

Do you know if there was legal cause to pull him over in the first place?
I don't think threatening suicide is illegal. I don't find a reference to attempted suicide to being illegal in Texas, and I would guess that suicide itself wouldn't be illegal since there would be no one to prosecute.

Whether or not there was a legal basis for the traffic stop is a valid question. Based on what you are saying, that he announced that he was goint to kill himself, I don't see the legal rationale for stopping him.

The above last little bit sums up nicely your problem (besides being biased). You have NO experiance and NO knowledge of what you are talking about, yet you continue to pass judgment. Look how you even go from asking if there was a valid reason to stop him to saying there was no legal basis for stoping him. (You're dead wrong, by the way, but continue on with your uniformed flame job...)
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TBO
 
TBO, thank you for copying so many of my remarks, it is nice to be appreciated :) .

Where did you get the information that he had been contacted by cell phone and threatened to kill the police? Was there a legal basis for stopping him on the road? Is threatening suicide actually a crime?
 
What was the legal basis for stopping him?

Where did you get the information about the cell phone conversation where he threatened to kill cops?

Is there a crime committed when a person threatens suicide?

I get the impression from your posts that you are either a current Law Enforcement Officer, or have been one in the past, is that correct?
 
What was the legal basis for stopping him?
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See butch, that (lack of knowledge/experiance of the subject matter) is the basis of:

-your misunderstandings

-members posts pointing out the above

You have been provided with information and have either refused to learn, or are unwilling to learn.

Do you admit lack of knowledge in this area? :confused:
 
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