"Keep it Simple Stupid"

FOF means Force On Force.
That is where you use Airsoft/Paintball or Sims guns to see how well you do against an armed opponent(s)
Provided that it is run properly it can provide excellent feedback as to what works in actual combat.
Of course nothing can can really duplicate a firefight so I hesitate to say that FOF is the ultimate testing ground for techniques.
 
I get it. He's trying to talk instructor-to-instructor and explain some newer concepts about advanced shooting ideas. It's like when he says, "Here is where you find out that the fundamentals are nowhere near good enough." He's trying to tell us that based upon what he's learned and seen, the most basic of shooting techniques will not always work and that some people need to advance some more. He's also trying to stress that people need more practice, training and need to re-think how they do both and how they shoot in times of stress. In other words, the idea of everybody being in lockstep may NOT be good for some shooters. Suppose you have a slightly disabled shooter, if you're trying to teach the disabled shooter things, you will probably have to make modifications in the way he stands, the way he moves as he shoots and so on. Where his message gets muddled is that he's saying that it ALSO applies to most other shooters too.
 
First my apologies to all, this poster is an admitted @$$0#0lic but I try not to be THIS insensitive.

FOF - Pass..... Not because I say so. Because Shidoshi Steven Hayes says so, to wit: "Warrior training that does not involve actual danger is merely playing at being bold". FOF sounds like a nifty tool for training, but something to bet the farm on. BGs may not fight like the "trained" adversary you face in FOF drills. I am just not sold on the value of FOF where 'second place' is getting smacked with an airsoft or paintball.
Would rather spend my time and money in IDPA and other matches getting used to the stress of competing which correlates to gunfight survival according to Mas Ayoob.

Not saying it might not have some benefit but NYPD stake out squad legend Jim Crillo may have had less training than some of our forum members. Jim did know Jack about being in a real fight. So did Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins, Jeff Cooper. (yeah I know Guru worship - guilty as charged - get over it)

KISS - Don't play with guns. That includes play guns. Here endeth the lesson.

I undrestand that methods, equipment, tactics and training are constantly evolving. Scenario training with non-lethal devices may provide some benefit. I liken it to martial arts, kata and drills do not teach one to fight. FIghting teaches one to fight, not sparring, not sporting contests.

What will one do in a fight? WIth a small margin of error what one has trained to do. That has been my experience in hand to hand confrontations in the line of duty and what other officers who have been in shooting fights have told me.

The techniques you have learned come with you, if you bring your focus and your heart. Without the mindset to fight, all else is irrelevant. Fortunately most humans are predisposed to self preservation. That means at some level most know "jack" about being in a fight. They know they want to survive it.

It may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but by the time I am convinced on FOF I may have to sign up for the senior wheelchair and walker class. YMMV.
 
Definition

KISS is "an acronym for "Keep It Simple, Stupid" [that] states that design simplicity should be a key goal and unnecessary complexity avoided. It serves as a useful principle in a wide array of disciplines, such as software development, animation, engineering, and strategic planning. Common variants of the acronym include: "Keep It Simple & Stupid", "Keep It Sweet & Simple", and "Keep It Short & Simple".

Complexity should, very simply, be avoided: simplicity becomes a goal in itself. Extra features are not needed; an approach that seems "too easy to be true" is in fact the best way; a very straightforward approach may seem less glamorous and less dramatic but that trivial approach should indeed be taken; surprisingly the very obvious approach is often best.


Related concepts

The principle is somewhat similar to Occam's razor, and Albert Einstein's maxim that "everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."
 
Iam still trying to figure out how the 70 year old man and the 80 year old woman defend them selves and many times kill the BG with out all this fancy training. Untrained people every day defend themselves. with firearms . They do it many times with only a few rounds fired Unlike the trained pros who fire up the country side .
All this FOF training just how many fights are you planing to be in and how many BG are you takeing on with your J frame or Kel Tec. .

I see that the direction that the training industry is headed is directly related to concepts brought forward by 7677 in 2000-2001. When he first started talking about these concepts no one was doing it or teaching it. Now numerous instructors are doing and teaching it.....and more are joining every day.
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Who is 7677 If my instructor going to have a number for a name I want 007 to train me .

All I am is a guide. A guide that unlocks the doors to abilities that you already have and own. Since this is already stuff that you are capable of, the time it takes to reach a very high level is very short. The training of the recent past has tried to train your abilities out of you. This is the type of training that takes time and expense. People that train with me basically never have to train with me again. They own it inside of two days.
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Sounds like some of that New Age late night info commerical stuff
Sorry I ain't buying
 
Just like to point out that the "basics" or fundamentals", don't mean do this and nothing more.

Being an iconoclast against perceived limitations doesn't work as well when those limitation don't exist.

I understand that there can be conceptual differences in any pursuit. But you don't seem to be attacking concepts as much as aphorisms.
 
7677 is a friend of mine who does not like to use his name on forums.
At the tender age of 38 he is a former Dallas police officer (7 years of service), a combat vet of the first Gulf war and is now a Federal Agent.
His grandfather was a WW2 Marine Raider who passed along a lot of his hard won knowledge to the grandson.
in other words, 7677 is for real and, along with myself and Brownie, was one of SweatnBullets first point shooting instructors.
Now as to KISS--all of my instructors with combat experience were firm believers in keeping things as simple as possible.
Hence KISS.
I do believe that SWB is over complicating the very simple concept of point shooting and cannot support him on this issue, since it violates the very core of what dozens of military/police vets have passed on to me.
Then again, perhaps SWB has discovered something that has somehow eluded all of these men.
Quien sabe?
 
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With all due respect, it doesn't sound like he has discovered some hidden secret that all the great gun guru's before him have somehow missed out on, it just sounds like he is self-importantly over-emphasizing things that were made simple for a reason.

You can shoot each other stupid with paintballs and plastic rounds all you want as you "train", but the fact is that your brain, even your "primitive" one, still realizes that there is no true danger. It DOES NOT PREPARE YOU FOR A REAL LIFE THREATENING SITUATION. All the new-age mumbo jumbo aside, it doesn't really force you to feel in true danger, thereby forcing you to deal with the very real "fight or flight" response.....;)
 
Where have you guys been?! This post has been up for a while.:)

It is not as if I have tip toed quietly through your world.

Yes, I am questioning if you have tested what you know and do inside of FOF......and I still am.

Scoffing at FOF does not answer the question. I wondered about the effectiveness of FOF training before I took it also. This lack of knowledge, on my part, was quickly replaced with an obvious understanding that what I thought was "good enough" was not even close. That realization happened to seven or eight of my "highly train" training partners....all at the same time. Eight for eight.....hard core/advanced Modern Techniquers finding out that all of their training performed poorly in FOF.

Was that a blow to the ego?......you bet......but we got over it.;)

"Keep it as simple as it needs to be, but no simpler."

I do believe that SWB is over complicating the very simple concept of point shooting and cannot support him on this issue, since it violates the very core of what dozens of military/police vets have passed on to me.
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Matt, "point shooting" is only a small portion of what I teach in my courses. The "point shooting" that I teach is no different from what you teach. It is the intertwining of additional skill sets and mindsets that you consider complicated. Without this intertwined skillsets and mindsets, I consider the "point shooting" information to be extremely flat sided and incomplete. My students and peer group (which also happen to include "dozens of military/police vets") tend to agree with me.

You have "your people" and I have "my people." Opinions and desires vary, as they should! I am very pleased with my piece of the puzzle. I am also very pleased that you do not teach my piece of the puzzle.

Some people only want the basics.....some people want a more complete understanding.

And that is a beautiful thing!

This means that you will have "your people" and I will have "my people" and both of them get exactly what they are looking for. Both of us leave no doubt as to who we are as instructors. People know exactly what they are going to get before they spend one red cent. Some gravitate towards you and some gravitate towards me.

Just as it should be!:)

What is "overcomplicated" to one person, is simple as pie to another. People that take my course do not think that it is over complicated. These people, with this actual knowledge of what I teach, are the only people that I tend to care about.

Then again, perhaps SWB has discovered something that has somehow eluded all of these men.
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Possibly something that has escaped them, but has not escaped the people that I have learned from. Knowledge is a very personal thing. You have your peer group.....and I have mine.....therefore different knowledge/experience base. Everything that I teach has been taught to me by someone else. None of this is my discovery.
 
That would be your opinion due to lack of knowledge of what I speak.
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If this is the case, then lack of knowledge for what you teach stems from your lack of proper explanation. The fact that Temkin has had to step in and try to explain your position for you better is indicative of the lack of clarity you have provided. You have made repeated references to events and documentation, but actually cited nothing.

Tell us again, where do you teach? Maybe all of us who are so ignorant of that which you teach need to visit the oracle in person.
 
I have to agree with DNS, you can claim the great mystic training powers you have, yet you provide no kind of proof.

Believe me, I have taken alot of training over the years, both courtesy of Uncle Sam, and civilian. I have participated in room clearing, hostage scenarios, mock battles, ect, ect. Yes, you learn some, "tactics". Yes you learn to think and act more quickly and confidently.

BUT, none of this training TRULY prepares you for the way you will react when your brain knows the bullets coming back at you are real, and that there are real lives on the line, including your own.

Paintball or airsoft may give you a very,very,very slight idea, but you cannot train your body properly, or prepare it for what will happen to it physically and mentally when that massive "real" adrenaline dump happens.
 
While nothing can duplicate combat ( which is why I find those who push competition shooting as a great way to shoot under "combat duplicating" stress a bit troubling) I must say that some type of FOF--be it with Simunitions, Airsoft or even lasers--to be a helpful training tool.
Police departments and the military are using these tools with good results and Ken Good's organization is very big on Siminuations.
But to base untested theories solely on their effectiveness in FOF is, IMHO, a recipe for disaster.
One of the reasons why I have sought the advice of combat veteran is because it was always obvious to me that these men have insights that can only be learned by placing one's butt on the line.
Anything else is second rate.
 
matthew, I'm not saying its not helpful. I'm just saying its not the end-all holy grail that sweatnbullets seems to make it out to be. I think its his "I know more than you" or "You just don't understand my superior way of thinking and training" attitude that seems to be getting in the way of what he is trying to say.
 
Derius_T--Excellent points and I could not agree more.
I know for a fact that SWB means well, but someone like himself with zero military/police/security/combat experience should be more humble in the attitude department.
I was a personal friend/student of Col. Applegate for the last 7 years of his life and I told him that I felt under qualified to teach combat shooting due to my never having been in a gunfight.
He smiled and said that while combat experience is not required to be a good instructor, those without should be careful about adding what they perceive to be "improvements" over the tried and true.
PS..7677 and myself will be teaching a free law enforcement class in Akron OH this summer.
Please contact me via a PM if you would be interesting in attending.
It sounds as if you have some valuable information to share with us.
 
Actually, it is a bunch of BS

LEO's seldom come into a situation where they confront an armed opponent. When they do, it is rare when shots are fired. Endless training for non LEO's is generally a waste. Only 1 in 10,000 CCW's will ever find themselves in the position to use their weapon to ensure a positive outcome.

Should we have CCW's? Hell no!!! Any american citizen should have the right to tote a firerarm. Open carry is what we need to promote. Why do we have to hide our guns?

Good night, my head hurts.
 
ibfestus, while most people on these forums believe that it is a God-Given Right to carry any type of firearm we choose, the Government unfortunately wants to fight us tooth and nail on this issue. I'd love to see National Open Carry, with no permits, but thats just not going to happen. Lets be glad for those states who have passed the Concealed Bill, and continue to fight the good fight, to help our brothers and sisters in states where their rights are still being completely trampled.


Side Note: I kinda see the governments point. If I were in charge of a government that repeatedly took away people's rights, and slowly chipped away at their very freedom, I'd be scared to death for all those unhappy people to have guns too. :D
 
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