Justifying the Gun

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Dodge DeBoulet

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After a 30+ year hiatus, I've gotten back into shooting. Target practice and informal falling plates get-togethers mostly, just for fun. I never owned a handgun previously, the guns from my youth were long guns, in 30-06 and 22 bolt-action varieties.

I now own both a Compact and Full Size S&W M&P .40 cal. Bought the Compact on a whim and had so much fun with it at a local falling plates competition (well, not much competition going on . . . ) that I bought its bigger brother a few weeks later.

Now, my wife actively dislikes guns. She registered her displeasure with the purchase of the first one but didn't try to prevent it. She saw how much fun I was having with it, though, and barely made a peep on the 2nd. And now she's giving me a complete reloading setup for Christmas :)

When I first decided to purchase the Compact, one of the justification angles I considered was self-defense. But frankly, based on my history, there's simply no way to use that as justification. Neither I nor any of my extended family have ever been the victim of violent crime, I live in a neighborhood in an area of Maine where crime just doesn't seem to happen, and I don't find myself taking long walks on the bad side of town. Hell, I haven't even been bitten by a dog in decades.

Now, to the point of my post: Have you ever found yourself in a situation in which holding a handgun eliminated a threat to your safety? This question is obviously not for LE (although situations encountered off-duty may be valid), since I'm sure scenarios such as this happen far more often in that line of work. But for those that consider themselves "regular guys/gals," has a handgun ever neutralized a dangerous situation?

Believe me, I'm not looking for fodder for some anti-gun activity. I'm a gun owner, and I very much enjoy my guns. I'm a member of the NRA and I believe strongly in our 2nd Amendment right to own firearms. I'm simply curious as to how many gun owners have actually had to employ a gun to protect themselves from a bad guy.

And if you have needed to present (or use) your gun in such a situation, I'd really like to hear the story . . . what went through your mind, what happened after the situation was defused, what sort of impact it had on your family and other loved ones, etc.

Thanks.
 
Not sure if you understand CC

The idea behind CCW is not how often or how likely to need the CCW but to be prepared if something did happen. Part of the reason most of us have never been in that situation is that many criminals realize that many people are armed. I'm not sure I understand your opinion or question. You should carry based on the possibility, not the probability because afterall it is your life we're talking about, or the life or lives of your loved ones. :rolleyes:
 
I have never had to draw a gun in self defense. There have been a few times that I would have been much more comfortable had I had one. One time I was actually in danger and probably would have been killed but I manipulated the scene to escape.

I carry because of the possibility, not the probably, of need to defend myself.
 
OK, let me clarify a bit.

I wasn't specifically talking about concealed carry, but self-defense in general. That includes home defense as well as personal defense while away from home (which may or may not involve concealment).

It was my wife's opinion that I didn't need a gun. And it's true, if the 50-odd years I've been alive are any indication, I didn't need a gun.

But I wanted a gun. And now I have a gun (two, actually), and will probably buy more guns. Guns are seriously fun.

My question was pretty much based on the fact that I see far more gun owners posting about the lethality of their weapons than, well, how much fun they are to shoot. Or how best to conceal them so they don't print rather than the best holster for open carry. And the best premium JHP ammo for bringing down BGs vs. sources for inexpensive wad-cutters.

It's a feeling I get from the 3-4 gun-related forums I've subscribed to since getting my M&Ps . . . the focus of most handgun owners is on self-protection. Mine isn't, and it makes me feel a little weird, I guess.

So I'm just trying to figure out whether the personal-defense focus for the majority is based on real-life experience . . . that's really all there is to it.
 
I'm gonna come in from a little different angle on this.

Even though I have similar living circumstances as you - pretty safe, low crime area and lifestyle - many folks don't. And in the future, I might not.

I think however that the more responsible folks that get on board with the entire "pro gun/ right to self defense agenda", the harder it will be to ever take that right away from us.

If there are MILLIONS of us instead of thousands, it might conceivably be harder for the buffoons who pass legislation in this country to to sweep our Second Amendment rights under the rug.

I think that owning a gun or guns, and having a concealed weapon permit should be as common as owning a chain saw or a personal computer. (two other tools with incredible potential for destruction and mayhem)

jd
 
My initial purpose in buying my first gun was self defense. That is still my primary purpose in owning them. That said, I do really enjoy sport shooting, target practice, etc. Heck, I even love cleaning them! I am a gun nut, no doubt about it. One issue I never dance around though is that my guns all have a primary purpose: self defense.

I'm like you in that I've never been the victim of a violent crime myself, neither has anyone I personally know. I do have a cousin that is locked for life for a 1st degree murder charge, but I've never met him personally.

I do believe, however, that our own safety, and the safety of our families, is our responsibility and no one else's. I wear my seat belt religiously. I bundle my kids up when they go out in the cold. I do all the stuff most people do to protect themselves and their families. I have never been the type of person that likes to take risks. But I am going to make sure, as much as it is within my power, that my family is safe from the criminal element. I know the stats say that I will likely never have to use any of my weapons in self defense. The stats also say that I am likely never to be in a fatal car accident, or be struck by lightning. That doesn't mean that I don't wear a seat belt or that I run around in open fields during a storm.

I wouldn't say that I am condition 1 all the time, and that I am always afraid, because I am not. I am generally a relaxed, easy going person. But I also like to be prepared. So yes, I shoot my guns FAR more often in sport than self defense, but that doesn't change their primary purpose...for me at least.
 
It's a feeling I get from the 3-4 gun-related forums I've subscribed to since getting my M&Ps . . . the focus of most handgun owners is on self-protection. Mine isn't, and it makes me feel a little weird, I guess.
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IMO, gun ownership simply for the pleasure of shooting is just as valid a reason to own a gun as is defense or hunting. One's motivation behind their gun ownership is purely personal, and so long as they're safe, obey the law, and the gun satisfies their need and/or want, they're all valid. Just my $0.02.
 
But frankly, based on my history, there's simply no way to use that as justification.
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Based on my history of my house never having burned, I can't justify the expense of fire insurance on my home. I have it anyway. We have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen for the same reason.

For many shooters like me, most of our guns have as much to do with self defense as a golf club. It is a sport and hobby on which we lavish our time and attention.

That said, I've used arms I purchased for the purpose of punching holes in paper to dissuade unsavory people from doing violence. It was unpleasant, and I will be happy to never have one again.

Your wife sounds like a gem.
 
Have you ever found yourself in a situation in which holding a handgun eliminated a threat to your safety?
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Yep, three times, all having to do with home invasions, one involving violent forcible entry and one involving an explicit threat of multiple murders.

No shots fired.

Very frightening each time.

Perps departed each time.
 
When I first decided to purchase the Compact, one of the justification angles I considered was self-defense. But frankly, based on my history, there's simply no way to use that as justification. Neither I nor any of my extended family have ever been the victim of violent crime, ...
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"Past performance is not indicative of future results."
 
A tiny bit off topic

But on the same lines:

How many here really had to use your seat belts, (car car seats for infants).
Is there really a need for seat belts or car seats.

See where I'm coming from.
 
Dodge

There is no need to feel strange about owning something that you enjoy. There are many uses for a firearm other than self defence or war. Shooting sports are just that, a sport. I do not carry a gun, it is not allowed in my state and do not feel the need to be armed unless going hunting.

There are many that own many shotguns and enjoy duck and goose hunting without ever buying a handgun. That is a sport I do not feel I need to participate in, all but one of mine are long and hand guns. Maybe oneday I will go turkey hunting, but I find it cheaper and easyer to go to Jewel and buy one. But, many enjoy the chalange and outdoors and go at least once a year turkey hunting. Me, I like long range shooting and spend most of my efforts in developing my skills along these lines including reloading for my own rifles to improve my skills. I have just started shooting in IDPA compitions and find it fun if not tiring at my age. I participate to improve my own skills and test myself.

There are many types of sporting events that you can participate in with your firearms that do not result in the taking of life. And you can enjoy what you do as in anyother sport.

Have fun and stay safe.
Jim
 
Dodge DeBoulet,


I'm sure you realize by now that you've opened a real can of worms. I've tried to have this discussion on TFL a number of times. Frankly, it's tough to keep it civil.

There are three basic opinions:

1)Don't need a gun and don't carry a gun.
2)Need a gun and you're a fool if you don't carry one.
3)More than likely won't ever need a gun but may or may not carry one.

I fall in option 3, and so do you, more or less. We tend to get flak from both sides of the equation.

I agree with your assessment. I'm 34 years old and have never needed a gun, nor have I ever felt like I MIGHT need a gun. No one that I know has ever needed a gun, or been assaulted or expressed to me that they've EVER wished that they were armed. Like you, I live in a place where serious crime simply "doesn't happen".

Here's the strange part..... I carry a gun. Everyday. What?! Why? You might ask?....
Because I want to. I fully expect to never need it. Fully. But, I can and I want to, so I do. I
On the other hand, I've gone to great lengths to understand the implications and prepare to deal with the consequences should I ever need the gun (and survive), and anyone who carries a gun should do the same.

I consider a gun to be like a seatbelt. Granted, it's a lot less likely to be used than a seatbelt, but it's the same in that if you ever need it and don't have it then it's too late to "put it on".


So, my advice to you is simple. If you want a gun for carry purposes, then get one but prepare yourself as best you can for the moral, emotional, legal and financial consequences of using it. If not, don't. The odds are excellent that you'll go the rest of your life and never need it but... prepare yourself for the moral, emotional and financial consequences of not having one.
 
Hey, Dodge --

I'll tiptoe into this one. I'm an avid shooter and I own a growing collection of handguns, both semi-autos and revolvers. I also have a permit to carry a concealed handgun. But, having said that I -- like you -- can't envision a situation where I'd actually have to use a gun for self-defense.

I start with the fact that like most folks, I don't perform work that exposes me to danger (well, there's the danger to one's personal well being that comes from sitting on one's butt all day long doing less than fulfilling work), nor do I live in or travel to communities where there is a high risk of person against person crime. My hunch is that I have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than I have of becoming a victim of a violent crime.

Second, I have serious doubts that I would be able to use a handgun appropriately and effectively if I were put in a position of risk. Using a handgun correctly for self defense involves two elements: judgment and the ability to use a weapon effectively while under great duress. I'm concerned about my ability to judge the appropriate circumstance when to use a hand gun. State laws on handgun use are generally pretty unforgiving of the individual who shoots a gun or who even draws one under circumstances where deadly force is not called for. I simply am not certain that I'd be able to make the almost instantaneous judgment that may be required to decide when to draw and/or shoot. As to the issue of ability, I've trained and trained over the years and I'm still uncertain as to whether I'd be able to fire a gun effectively in a high-pressure situation. My concern in that situation extends not only to my own safety but to that of innocent bystanders.

I do not for a moment question the judgment of others who choose to carry. It's a personal decision and its something that everyone must wrestle with. I'm fine with personal carry or even maintenance of a handgun for self defense just so long as the person who does it operates within the limits of the law.

And, I'm still mulling over the question of whether I'll ever carry one. Obviously, I've thought seriously about it at times because I have a carry permit and went through all of the hassle necessary to get it. And, as I've said, I've trained my backside off so that I'm as competent as I can be with my guns. But, having the right to do something and doing something are two different things.

Meanwhile, I continue to be an avid shooter and acquirer of firearms. Shooting is a fantastic sport quite apart from the self-defense issues and it's something that I love doing.
 
I live in a pretty safe place too.

I got my CCW because it enhanced my rights under the law. That is more than enough reason for me.

Say we get a 100 year storm and the trucks cant get thru to the city to resupply stores...or there is a nation wide bank failure, or maybe a cat5 storm and everyone is ordered to the statium.....

..then I'll be glad I got my "rights" while the getting was good.

no doomsday senarios, just life on planet Earth.
 
Watch the local evening news for a week ,where i live it only takes one night.Im close to Columbus Ohio.
My family originates in the rather backwoods of WV,25 miles from the closest town which is really small with 1 stoplight.They have some crazy stuff going on around them also.Just recently a preacher was murdered and robbed at an outdoor public shooting range.

Im not a fearful person,nor scared or irrational.But i can most definitely justify owning a handgun and a concealed permit.
 
peetzakilla said:
I'm sure you realize by now that you've opened a real can of worms. I've tried to have this discussion on TFL a number of times. Frankly, it's tough to keep it civil.
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We seem to be doing OK so far :)

I understand what you're saying, though. I had a feeling that this might be a touchy subject, but, well, curiosity got the best of me.

The thing is, I don't disagree with anything said here. Everyone that's posted has a legitimate justification for owning, carrying, concealing and using their guns. My personal reasons for owning handguns aren't the same as others, but I can appreciate that their past histories, current circumstances, and desire to live free from fear is just as (and probably more) valid as my reasons for wanting to poke holes in inanimate objects from 15 yards :D
 
I am now in my 60s and have never been in a situation in which a firearm would have been useful for self-defence. There are no dangerous animals around. I've yet to see a wild dog anywhere and snakes are not worth shooting. There are other ways of dealing with snakes. Although I've been hunting a few times, I don't hunt. There are two avid hunters here but you know hunting these days is an invitation-only activity.

I have known several people who died from gunshots but only one murder victim. I did not grow up in a house with guns. I did serve in the army but that had little to do with my interest in guns before or since. I own both rifles, pistols and revolvers at the moment but I haven't been shooting in quite a while in spite of the fact that I still seem to buy and trade. I handloaded for quite a while, too.

I basically don't keep them around for self-defence. There isn't the treat to justify that, like it or not and that's entirely my own opinion. I don't have flood insurance either and I don't drive a really big car because it's safer. Really big cars are in fact safer but that doesn't keep me from driving one that's smaller. It is simply a cost/benefit analysis of the risk. I know what I'm worth and it isn't that much. Just ask my wife.

I also know what lawyers cost and all the trouble dealing with the legal system entails. If you ever have to deal with the court, you will appreciate your lawyer as much as your doctor.

So how is it I manage without carrying a gun around all the time? It is against company policy to have one here at work. When I leave here I go straight home. I don't go to bars, I don't mess around with other men's wives, and in other words, I take responsibility for my own safety--up front. On this point I keep remembering Cooper's answer to some magazine poll about a concealed weapon to carry into bars and places like that. His answer: I don't go in places like that!

I'm fully aware that crime happens, though I have no fantasies of being there to keep the bad guy from robbing the bank or shooting up a schoolroom. There was even a police station almost within sight of where I sit that was shot up about three years ago. So, yeah, crime happens. There was even a murder in this county with a single shot pistol and, I know, nobody ever does anything like that with a sporting firearm.

If however I saw a need, and it isn't usually something that is triggered by a single event but rather by a lot of events (not necessarily happening to yourself) that causes you to behave differently, I might. In the meantime, I'm doing my best to stay out of trouble. I'll keep you posted if things change.
 
Now, to the point of my post: Have you ever found yourself in a situation in which holding a handgun eliminated a threat to your safety?
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It did not eliminate the threat to my safety but it 'would' have if things had gotten any worse. I was working for a utility company and had a customer's neighbor take exception to what I was doing. With a rifle in his hands. Luckily for me I had chosen to disregard my company's "no firearms" policy and carry concealed when working in certain areas. Cooler heads prevailed and the disgruntled wannabe one percenter got on his bike and left, taking his grouchy wife with him. It was on that day that I proved to myself that the tool between your ears is more important than any other. However, if words had failed and things had gone to the next level without a pistol in my pocket, I would probably not be sitting here typing this.

Bad things can and do happen. Usually when and where you least expect it. You may live a life in relative safety and become complacent only to get mugged and murdered on your 65th birthday.
 
Bluetrain

I don't go to bars, I don't mess around with other men's wives,
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That would help keep most of us out of trouble!!

Did Tiger's wife have a permit for that 6 iron she was carring? (LOL)

Jim
 
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