Just what's the story on 147-gr 9mms

Geez George, lighten up...I'm not hiding or using assumed names..I know you from the cult of P7 which I mentioned in my post....I have a different name over there (p7newbie) and I didn't want to use that name again (since I'm no longer new)...I would never be embarrassed by my posts....especially since most of them are pithy and humorous and I have gotten many a compliment on them....Unlike some who keep cutting and pasting the same post in various forums....now shake hands and let's load what we want...if one type of bullet was correct they would only make one....breaker 1-9 out...(i think that is "CB" talk, right? In L.A. we use cell phones..."love your script baby, let's do lunch")

Regards,

Dave in smoggy, pretentious, overcrowded, L.A.
 
It seems that some department are having good luck with the 147 with up to date bullet designs. I can't agree more that if a bullet doesn't go deep enough you are in trouble so to eliminate any possiblity of this trouble most PD use a bullet with more chance of reaching the vitals. I do agree that velocity brings more energy. What I don't understand is how can a 180 40 caliber at 950 to 980 be so much better and give outstanding results when the 147 9mm doing 950 to 980 be so poor. The only difference between the two rounds is one silly millimeter and a little more weight. I personnally think that there is a very small difference and both really give very simular results. I do feel that more velocity does make a round hit harder but you must not sacrifice deep penetration for it. If the design of the bullet can blend with the higher velocity to dig in deep you have a winner. I think that the newer 147 is being underated with modern bullet designs today, for what reason who knows. I doubt if anyone could even tell by looking at a bullet hole in someone if the round was a 40 or a 9mm a 115 or a 147 or a 180. The only difference is where the bullet goes and what it hit and did the round reach in deep. My problem with all this is the badmouthing of the 9mm 147 and the outstanding results of the 180 40 round I just don't see it. If you take a 40 caliber bullet head and place it face down on a table then take a 9mm bullet head and place the two bullet heads heal to heal it is so small a difference I just can't see this major outstanding improvement. I think this is a moral and confidence booster for instructors to make officers feel that they have a much better and deadlier caliber and gun, over their prior 9mm weapons. This thinking gets officers killed. I feel shot placement, penetration and shoot until the threat is over and use cover will keep you alive.
 
George, to summarize the article: the 147 gr load evaluated performed very well. Its performance in human bodies (courtesy of San Diego PD) paralleled test results obtained from gelatin testing (re penetration depths, expansion diameters and retained weight.

Again, I strongly recommend MacPherson's book, which addresses in detail the issues you cite, such as energy and velocity. As BrokenArrow said, yes, your statements ARE wrong re "power, velocity and expansion". But that doesn't make your choice(s) wrong (necessarily). I could explain these things to you, but it would take me a heck of a long time, MacPherson does it much better than I could, and why should you trust anything I say anyway?! Do the research on your own if you're interested in the subject. You will come away with a better understanding of ballistics and wound trauma, and you will (should) be getting the information from identifiable, reliable and credible sources.

A lot of the bad press against the 147/9mm can be traced back to the late 80's when bullet design wasn't what it is today, and wounding mechanisms weren't understood as well as they are today (even though it seems many MD's still don't understand wounding dynamics).

Good luck!
 
http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

this might help clear up all the hype....try and remember that the "experts" are out to make money and are influenced by who pays the bills.....lab testing is fine if we are ever attacked by a race of gelatinous, unskeletonized aliens with their vital organs in their feet. As for me, I rather will take what happens on the street with fellow deps as "proof" of a particular round.
 
don't shoot it's me

Why I asked the question about penatration of the 147 is that I'm of the school that when I trigger my handgun I want one hole in and hole out. But If I'm in a crowed location (lots of people) I want a bullet that won't exit. I didn't mean that to sound like a smart butt question.

Guys, tests and theory are all great but field testing is the final judge.

Turk
 
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BrokenArrow,

Thanks for your post of 21 JUN. Sorry for the slow response, I was traveling.

I agree with you, it is a separate debate of 45 ACP vs 40 S&W vs 9x19.

I am focused on finding the most effective self defense ammo in 9x19. i.e. high stopping power with low risk of killing innocents from over penetration.

I appreciate you putting up some numbers on penetration/expansion through bare gel after cloth. Please tell me where you got the data.

Here are some numbers from corbon.com and federalcartridge.com

CORBON 9x19
115 gr @ 1350 fps with 466 ft/lbs
125 gr @ 1250 fps with 434 ft/lbs

Hydra-Shok 9x19
124 gr @ 1120 fps with 345 ft/lbs
147 gr @ 1000 fps with 325 ft/lbs

Reference NOV/DEC 98 American Handgunner Page 16. NYPD was having problems with innocents getting shot by over-penetrating 9x19 115gr FMJ & round nose ammo as well as 147gr JHP ammo. They switched to 115 JHP 1300 fps ammo. Same article says Secret Service adopted the same Remington ammo for
9x19.

Also reference Gun Tests AUG 96 Performance Test: 9mm Handgun Ammunition. Fired rounds into fabric covered gelatin. They rated the Winchester Supreme 147 gr SXT as being unsatisfactory because its low velocity did not cause bullet
expansion and the low power. They rated the Corbon 115gr 1350 fps as the best, making a wound like a 44 magnum.
(Frankly, I am suspicious of the gelatin tests. It is too easy to vary the temperature or media to get results which make whatever results you want to see.)

In my studies of full power 9x19 ammo, 147 gr ammo is always less powerful than 124 gr or 115 gr ammo. And the slow 147 gr subsonic ammo has less potential for expansion.

It is hard for me to accept that a slower, less powerful 9mm bullet is more effective than a faster more powerful bullet of the same caliber. I am afraid some people equate a heavier bullet to higher power and that is a mistake with 147 gr in 9x19.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

P.S. The Corbon 115gr ammo I tested has nearly zero flash at night. It is quite remarkable.
 
George, you're confusing fpe with "power". The numbers you posted are fairly meaningless because you didn't include penetration depths (through various media), retained weight, etc. As long as you hang your hat on the velocity driven figure of fpe (foot pounds of energy) you're not looking in the right places for the information you claim to want to know.

As for information gleaned from magazine tests, if they told me the sky was blue I'd have to go outside and check for myself. Not exactly the paragons of truth or objectivity.
 
I don't think you can go wrong with a 115 grain moving at 1350. I wouldn't want to be hit with one. Nor would I want to be downed by a 147 moving at just over 1000. But choose wisely. Why do people quote gelatin tests by gun rags and velocity charts by the manufacturer (under optimum conditions and barrel length) for a defense round when there is a wealth of info out there provided by actual performance on the street? You won't find the facts from guys like Ed Sanow who has the same stupid article running in 25 rags endorsing some new wazoo round because the manufacturer gave him 5000 rounds as a thank you for testing it. Do your research and carry what you want, just regard the source and don't think just becase it's in print, it's true...."Dewey Wins"


"Looking for a good quote"
 
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Info from FBI, CPRC, CHP tests, IWBA articles, LAPD, LASO, SDPD, etc. Not gunzine articles, real research by real experts that can be verified and validated.

Accept it or not, the 147s are expanding and stopping just fine for plenty of PDs in real shootings w real bad guys (avg .60). The LAPD and LASO operate in practically the same area, issue the same pistols. LAPD used a high speed 115, LASO a 147. I suspect they noticed how the other was doing with their loads? After years of side by side use, LAPD switched to a 147, not the other way 'round. Hmmm...

NYPD has had problems with most of their guns & ammo (Glocks, Berettas, SIGs, HK MP5s, Rem, Win). They dumped the 115 Rem at 1300 and ended up with the Speer 124 +P Gold Dot at 1220, which BTW, penetrates even _deeper_ after cloth than the 147s. Are they still having the problem?

FBI:

124 GD +P 20.25
127 SXT +P+ 19.8

147 GD 18.2
147 HS 15
147 Tactical HS 16
147 GS 16.8
147 BT 16.35
147 ST 18.1

The 147s are not as bad as too many think they are, the 115 +Ps not as good. Your tactical needs determine which is best for you. For the Secret Service a 115 +P+ may be best, for most PDs the 147s may be best.

I'm just pointing out that when folks say the 147s do not expand, are not working, they are wrong more often than not.
 
Well to get back to the topic, most new 147's work just fine.

As far as them not expanding... well some don't expand as well as others, but they all expand. Bullet expansion has FAR, FAR more to do with design than weight, velocity or anything else for that matter.

I'm not an expert, but I've thought about matters quite a bit. The 9mm FMJ will penetrate VERY far, if memory serves me correctly, something like 70 cm's based on Fackler's drawing. The trick then, is to make the bullet expand quickly to a certain diameter, and then STOP expanding. The final diameter should be such that the bullet achieves ideal penetration. The only thing better would be one that homes in on the target's brain stem... but that's not gonna happen.

The ONLY problem I have with 115ers is that they simply don't penetrate far enough, or in the case of the gold dots, they penetrate waaaay to far after clothing. I like energy just as much as the next guy, but unless that energy is put to good use it isn't worth a darned thing. If the high speed 115 hits a bullet proof vest, it delivers all of its energy to the target, but does it kill him? Nope. Bullets put holes in things. Simple as that. The reason the 115's don't penetrate is because they WASTE energy. In the form of temporary stretch cavities. Thus, while a 115 might have more kinetic energy, AND momentum (thus ABILITY to do damage), they don't use it as efficiently as a 147 does.

So, if someone makes a high speed 115 capable of penetrating 12-15 inches in gel, and after cloth, and through bone, I'll use it. Until then... I'm sticking to 124's, and 147's (EFMJ's, HS, GS)

-Morgan
 
CaesarI (and others here),

This is a very good discussion. LOTS of GOOD points of view!

CaesarI, you said:
“if someone makes a high speed 115 capable of penetrating 12-15 inches in gel, and after cloth, and through bone, I'll use it.”
This cartridge has been common for decades. It is called FMJ, or in the recent case of NYPD, RN. This is ideal on the battlefield but a poor choice for self defense/CCW/police use.

CaesarI,
Your focus on penetration without regard to over-penetration (which suggests disregard for innocents or the reality that an exiting bullet has failed to deliver all its energy to the intended target) is the prime argument of the 230 gr 45 ACP crowd as well as SEALS interested in offensive suppressed shooting.

Let me reframe the discussion:
- Penetration is a debatable issue. Do you err on the side of dumping max energy in the target or over-penetrating and wounding innocents? (I think 15” gel penetration is erring
on the side of wounding innocents)
- Do you believe a round with low power or high power will be more effective?
- Do you believe a round with low expansion or high expansion will be more effective?
(A full power 115 gr JHP gives higher power, higher potential for expansion and less penetration than a 147 gr bullet in 9x19! These are the facts.)

Some people have already made up their mind.
For the others interested in 9x19 for defense , I encourage you to evaluate 115 gr JHP ammo at 1300+ fps. From my evaluation, this is the safest choice!

Good luck.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
Well, George, I believe that the true-life experience of all those hundreds of police shootings every year, with few (if ANY) innocents being wounded beyond the target, makes over-penetration an over-hyped "problem" of such remote possibility, I'll gladly err on the side of penetration.

Am I just as culpable if my controlled-penetration round fails to neutralize a BAD person and he/she/it harms or kills another victim after my short-penetrating shot?

Heard on the news yesterday morning that some obese crime victim was shot five times in the torso and lived because no bullet got past the blubber.

Prepare for everything and you're ready for nothing???
 
Hey George.

Regarding the FMJ 115gr sorry if I wasn't more clear, but when I said, "if someone makes a high speed 115 capable of penetrating 12-15 inches in gel, and after cloth, and through bone, I'll use it."

I included the remark about 12-15 inches as a hard limit. i.e. the bullet must penetrate at least 12 inches, and not more than 15 in Gelatin. With the same requirements for through cloth and through bone. That's why the 115gr Gold Dot is unacceptable, it penetrates too far after clothing, even though it gets ~12 inches in bare gel.

I believe that the IWBA calls for 12.5-14 in bare gel, and 14-16 in cloth I could be off by a little bit.

I also believe that ALL handgun rounds are iffy at best. Even the mighty .45. I'd tend to err on the side of under-penetration, rather than over-penetration, however I believe that 8-10 inches is wholly unacceptable. If I increase the risk of shooting through the target by 1% to gain 12 inches of penetration, it's worth it. 2nd, overpenetration is a little overhyped. Odds are my shots will miss rather than hit the target.

I want as much power as I can get, but only if it is being used effectively. For example, I flat out refuse to have anything to do with Glasers, and their ilk, unless I'm planning on shooting in a maze of cubicles. The increase in power from 325 ft-lbs to 466 ft-lbs is 141 ft-lbs. If I hit you with my car at 30 mph, you might not die if all of that KE is not used effectively. Whereas if I smack you in the head with a big rock odds are your toast. #4 buckshot at 1351 f/s has a KE of 7,121 ft-lbs. Now we're going to agree that if I shoot you with #4 buckshot you're gonna stop doing whatever the hell it was you were doing right? Do you think you'd still stop doing it if it only had 6,890? removing those 141 ft-lbs? I think so too. Now if a shotgun is what you need to effectively stop an attacker immediately with a torso shot, and it has approx 7000 ft-lbs, what's a puny 325-466 gonna do to a person? #4 Buck is firing 27 .24 caliber spheres, all in less than a second.

As far as expansion goes. I don't think it amounts to a hill of beans in terms of doing more harm to a person. .51, or .60 what's the difference, a tenth of an inch? huh... not much is it? Would you be overly concerned if I put a whole a tenth of an ince through your body (granted that's not quite accurate) or 2 of'em? I think you'd survive... unless... they were in that all critical spot, the spine/brain stem. But we're talking about torso shots.

147's expand. They do. Velocity is not the be all, end all factor in expansion. DESIGN, is. 230gr's at 850 fps expand very, very well. As I mentioned above, the 115 gr Gold Dots don't expand well after clothing, even though they expand very well in bare gel. Velocity and energy are all find and dandy, but in the end the energy difference between high speed 115's, and slower speed 147's isn't very much at all, and neither is the expanded diameter.

Design, design, design. Not Velocity. They made a 115 that will overpenetrate (after cloth), and they could probably make a 147 that would underpenetrate, and they make 147's that get ideal penetration.

Weight, and velocity are meaningless to me. I care about it getting 12-15 inches of penetration. If it gets 12-15 inches of penetration through cloth and in bare gel, it MUST expand.

Consider the bother it is to set up gel and test bullets, versus the trouble of measuring Kinetic Energy. One requires a lot more work. Additionally, it is the scientists, men of reason, doctors who advocate minimum penetration requirements. Whereas anecdotal evidence says Energy is the all important factor. I tend to side with science. And if they are all saying that a bullet should penetrate 12-16 inches I'm not about to argue with them. I'm arrogant enough for demanding 15 inches instead of 16.

As far as innocents go, a 115gr going at 1300+ fps is just as likely to go through dry wall, and plywood as a 147, going at 1000 fps. If I want something that won't penetrate dry wall and plywood well, I'll use the Federal EFMJ.

Going back to my original point, the 115's available today don't use their energy as efficiently. Temporary cavities in most cases do no damage to a BG.

Gold Dots tend to over-penetrate after passing through clothing, with an exception for the 147's. Corbon's tend to underpenetrate. While they might get enough penetration for most circumstances... there are other cases where they will fail to achieve the penetration necessary to incapacitate in the only way a handgun cartridge can: hitting vital body parts.

The last post about shooting people with blubber in front is a good point. BG's tend to be bigger than us Good Guys. More stuff that needs penetrating.

But that's enough for tonight, I'm tired and I've gotta get up early.

-Morgan
 
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I get accused of doing that a lot. Course... I also spend a lot of time with Liberals. But since when have they cared about the facts?

"My boy, we are Pilgrims in an unholy land"-Dr. Jones to Dr. Jones in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"

-Morgan

"Homines id quod volunt credunt"-Gaius Julius Caesar

Translation: "Men believe what they want to."
 
Does anyone have the statistics on the following in LEO shootings?

1. Average of shots fired to end the confrontation and how many misses per confrontation.

2. How many bystanders are hit by over penetrating bullets or missed bullets form these shooting.


It would seem to me if bystanders were being killed and or wounded by stray or over penetrating bullets the news media would have a field day with it.

It would be interesting to know what volicity a bullet is traveling once it exits the target. I’ve read that bullets are sometimes found just under the skin and do not exit?

I’ve seen a man take a hit from a Browning 50 round and still able to continue to fight.

Regardless of what caliber and or type/wt/ of bullet used one thing supersedes all others and that is bullet placement period.

Have a good day and the debate rages on.

Turk
 
Back to the topic - From its' beginnings as a round intended for use in a supressed 9MM carbine (Force Recon) intended for quiet removal of sentries, guard dogs, etc., the 147 was touted to many departements as "the" new round, now in use by "our elite military". The administrative types in many departments bought this hook, line and sinker, and the round was issued widely.

The original load was speced for a narrow application, and not as a general-issue LE round. In discussing "the 147 gr 9MM" you are talking about a round in constant development, from its' meager start, to the various rounds issued today, which are quite different from the original. "Morgue Monsters" and "Jello Junkies" aside, the ammo manufacturers were quick to pick up on the original complaints, and most production in this bullet weight are now well qualified duty rounds.
 
CaesarI,
Your post of 27 JUN is contradictory and makes no sense.
Do you own a CB radio?

Walosi,
You win the cigar!!!
147gr bullets in 9x19 have low power and poor expansion (READ: poor stopping power) but are subsonic. The 147gr bullet is a compromise for suppressed shooting. Why would one use a 147gr 9x19 subsonic bullet (with the poor performance) if they were not shooting suppressed?
If you need to shoot effectively with a suppressed subsonic round, 230 gr 45 ACP is far superior in terms of energy and diameter.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
Why would I own a CB radio again?
And I must be missing something because I'm failing to see contradictions in that post.

The 230 grainers don't seem to have any trouble expanding at 850 fps, which would seem to suggest 147's going at close to a thousand shouldn't have that problem either. But this is getting to be a lengthy thread.

-Morgan
 
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