Just to stir up trouble...

Repeating, it is loaded BELOW maximum allowable pressure. So why limit it's use at all? I don't get it. Frankly, I find mainstream +P to be a mild target load. Cases do not expand and seal the chamber which is sure sign of low pressure. The empties fall from the cylinder simply by pointing the muzzle up. Absolutely no signs of any excessive pressure. Indeed, signs of very low pressure.
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Because shooting a continuous diet of ammunition loaded right up to the ragged edge of allowable pressure, while not likely to cause a catastrophic failure, will dramatically shorten the life of a gun. You're not likely to blow up a vintage Colt D-Frame or S&W J-Frame by shooting +P ammo, or even .38/44 ammo, but you're going to have problems like timing issues and excessive endshake a lot sooner than if you'd limited the use of such ammunition.

Now, if you want to shoot maximum loads in your guns all the time, that's fine. They're your guns and nobody but you has to pay the gunsmith when you beat them up. That being said, for someone who wishes to pass their guns on to their children and grandchildren, it would be wise to be a bit more conservative about what ammunition is shot in vintage guns.
 
I can say with absolute certainty that +Ps ( and not that many of them) are no good for an alloy J frame Smith like a Model 37.
 
I will reiterate what I said last time this came up...

A guy I know shot a US Navy marked Victory model to uselessness with a steady diet of +P ammunition. It was solid before, and by the time he was done the endshake was so bad that it was failing to fire a significant portion of the time.
 
MIke, how many rounds did it take? Hundreds, thousands? Less? Seems the only way this issue is ever going to get put to bed is for someone do perform a documented test using an old S&W and test it to failure! (I like mine to much to volunteer! If I ever pick up another one, though, I'd probably be willing to sacrifice it in the name of science)
 
Many years ago, 1954 to be exact I got an S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman for my 16th birthday. I loaded the ammo with an old Lyman 310 tong tool, bullets were cast from a Lyman single cavity mold, bullet #358156 and gas checks. Powder was H2400 and the load was the alleged factory duplication load from an older Lyman loading manual. I later went to lighter loads for practice using a load of Bullseye. The factory duplications now being saved for serious shooting. That gun was used to take out a Black Bear in 1959 if I recall the year correctly I no longer have that handgun but still have the mold. I searched for a long time for a replacement for that long lost first handgun and about 5 years ago finally found one. I only shoot light target loads in the new gun, sticking to full power loads in the .357 Mag. M28.
Regarding hot load battering the revolvers, my vavorite load for the .44 Magmun is Elmer Keith's old load of 22.0 gr. of H2400. I'm thinking the Alliant version of 2400 is hotter than the original version made by Hercules. (H2400 vs A2400) Roughly 200 to 250 rounds of Elmer's load batters my S&W 629 badly enough that it has to go back to Smith for repairs. It's been back twice and now it's in semi-retirement. Elmer's load now get used only in a Ruger Redhawk. I've noticed that most manuals heve reduced that load to 20.0 gr. I've also notice that max loads for the .357 Mag. have been reduced because the original data batters those K frame Smith's. A while back Brian Piere did an excellent article on the 38/44 Smith & Wesson. A worth while read in Handloader Magazine if you can find a copy.
Paul B.
 
Originally posted by Tortuga12
Seems the only way this issue is ever going to get put to bed is for someone do perform a documented test using an old S&W and test it to failure! (I like mine to much to volunteer! If I ever pick up another one, though, I'd probably be willing to sacrifice it in the name of science)
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The problem herein lies it would have to be an unfired vintage S&W which is neither easy to find, cheap, nor easy to verify that it is indeed unfired. You see, unless a verified unfired gun is used, we have no way to what sort of ammunition and how much of it the previous owner(s) fired in the last 57 years (S&W says that all-steel K-Frames made from 1957 on are OK for +P .38 Special). A gun which was fired very little or only with light wadcutter loads will probably hold up to more +P ammo than one owned by SaxonPig or someone who shares his ideas about +P ammunition.
 
I can tell you that the older S&W can handle +P almost forever. Our duty weapon was a S&W 38. I forget which model. Old age and the fact it has almost been 10 years since I retired. When I worked on the range at the academy we would put 200 rounds a day through each weapon. All +P. we believed in training with the rounds that you have to use. some of those 38s were 10 years old and had been used the entire time at the academy.

We had one week every six to deep clean and lube them before they were back on the firing line.

The math of how many rounds each one had per year is staggering. We had very few failures and I don't know of any barrel or frame failures. We had a few spring failures and a few dropped causing the front sight to break of making the weapon useless!

I don't know if this helps or not.

Mel
 
"MIke, how many rounds did it take?"

He said a couple hundred.


"it would have to be an unfired vintage S&W"

No, I don't think it would be. It would just need to be with in manufacturer's specification.
 
Originally posted by Mike Irwin
"it would have to be an unfired vintage S&W"

No, I don't think it would be. It would just need to be with in manufacturer's specification.
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There would be some variance as manufacturer's specifications are usually a range. For example, a S&W with no perceptible rotational play in the cylinder at full lockup and one with only slightly perceptible rotational play at full lockup would both be considered "in spec" but I'd expect the one with perceptible play to display timing issues first.

If we take your example of a Victory Model which was battered to the point of excessive endshake within "a couple hundred rounds" of +P ammo, I would expect a Victory Model which had previously been fired with 100 rounds of +P ammo to display excessive endshake in this hypothetical test before one which had only been fired with 50 rounds of +P ammo.

Really though, it's all academic as the fact that the gun you mentioned could be battered from presumably "in spec" to the point of unreliable ignition within a couple hundred rounds of +P ammo is all the proof I need that +P ammo in a revolver of that vintage is a bad idea.
 
As a 38/44 collector and fan, I have tested real 38/44 ammo and found that it clocks along at around: (158 grn)

3844_r266.jpg

This is the 38/44 ammo that was chrono-ed.

6.5” 1198+ 1057- 141e 1121m 82s
5.0” 1131+ 1002- 129e 1079m 71s
4.0” 1069+ 739- 330e 1010m 103s (one bad round)

Factory specs for the 38/44 out of a 5" were 1125 which I believe is certainly reasonable. Out of a 6.5" it would have done 1150 fps and the 4" should have broken in at right around 1100.

The standard load for a 158 LSWC for years was 5.0 grns of Unique. (Still book max with Lasercast)

6.5” 1049+ 975- 74e 1013m 25s
5.0” 1023+ 955- 68e 984m 19s
4.0” 1016+ 922- 94e 969m 25s

If we go to a +p load of 5.5 grns (Speer's #8 belly gun load)

6.5” 1106+ 1050- 56e 1079m 16s
5.0” 1071+ 1022- 49e 1044m 16s
4.0” 1052+ 1000- 52e 1027m 17s

I can say that around 6 grns of Unique with a 158 gets you to 38/44 velocity levels depending on the gun.

So with book max loads from Lasercast of 5.0 grns of Unique with a 158 LSWC, I shot 41,149 rounds out of a D framed Diamondback before I broke the spring for the hand and it had to go in for repairs.

I think you could shoot a lot of 38/44 loads out of a D frame before you caused serious issues BUT I would not do it.

D frames are not easy to come by so why beat up a poor defenseless little Colt when you could beat up a modern S&W and replace easily.
 
Peter, thanks for posting that info. I am a bit disappointed at the 1069 FPS from a 4" barrel. I thought it would go faster. You are right about 6 grains of Unique doing mid 1100s, that's what I got. I was thinking about going up on the powder charge to get the 1240 I thought the 38/44 produced. Guess I won't bother now.
 
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