Just throwing this out...

[Running Gunfight]

I usually never post on political issues anywhere. You might as well talk religion while you are at it. Anyhow, I saw an interesting interview tonight on the tube. I am kind of a conscientious objector when it comes to voting. Former military, jaded, etc.

What do you think of the theory that working class Republicans have, since 1980 essentially voted on cultural issues such as abortion, violence on TV, tough on crime, etc. and against their own economic best interests? As union membership, wages, health care provided by employers and retirements have all decreased in the following years.

Basically, that Reagan won over guys like Detroit auto workers with cultural issues, they voted for him and eventually they all lost their jobs. Union membership is now at the point it was during the late 1920's prior to the move to unionize, down from 25% when Reagan took office to 8% of workers now. Mcjobs, etc.

Also is the theory that since the Republicans have swayed working class votes in such large numbers on social issues and have been so successful at swaying public opinion against working class economic issues, that Democrats no longer wish to even argue economic issues like unions (like the FOP-I am a former member), etc. and this results in Democrats like Clinton becoming "economically/fiscally conservative, but socially liberal" to get elected and passing NAFTA, etc.

Essentially, the theory is that the fate of the former middle class is sealed (layoffs, previously mentioned problems with lowering quality of life of workers-ALL workers now as white collar layoffs have been heavy with the gutting of mid level mngt, etc) because both R's and D's are similar on economic issues, so that these issues that would improve things for workers are not even discussed, that only cultural issues are discussed as political hot topics. That ultimtely people have sacrificed their economic well being for the sake of cultural issues.

There you go. Thoughts?

 

[FrankDrebin]

What do you think of the theory that working class Republicans have, since 1980 essentially voted on cultural issues such as abortion, violence on TV, tough on crime, etc. and against their own economic best interests?

I think it's untrue.

 

[Zundfolge]

Unions are bad for the economy ... they (and things like minimum wage laws) end up costing jobs, not creating or preserving them.

Unions are just a form of price controls (artificially controlling the price of labor regardless of the market demand) and price controls always create shortages.

So no ... I don't believe your thesis is correct.


I do, however, believe that many "working class" (what a totally meaningless phrase*) Republicans have been voting for Republicans for social issues and the traditional small government position the GOP has claimed, and have been betrayed by the GOP on several occasions.



*Working Class is a meaningless phrase because it is a buzzword that means nothing because it means somethign completely different to each of us.
The kid who serves me a coffee at Starbucks is "working" and so is Donald Trump ... other then "working" they have nothing in common and as such are not part of the same "class"

 

[Fred Hansen]

Economically speaking: What Zundfolge said.

One of the biggest group of thugs... er... union types, is the National Education Association. About half of the teachers that I know couldn't teach a baby duck to swim. Those Detroit jobs you mentioned went down the toilet because the auto manufacturers were too busy fighting with the Union thugs. Their time would have been much better spent in realizing that the hubcap on a Honda Accord was better than an entire POS "K" car. Remember that gubmint subsidized horse turd from Chrysler? That's OK, nobody else does either. The last one fell apart 2-3 years after it was made.

Culturally speaking:

"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Matthew 16:26

A buddy of mine has a bumpersticker that is the perfect compliment to that quote "AIDS, Abortion, Euthanasia...don't liberals just kill ya?!?"


Fortunately - no matter how hard the leftist filth in this country try to destroy us - this country makes the world a little better each and every day. And quite frankly, I have completely lost patience with those who don't see that.

I guess that growing up around people who had little more than enough land to subsist on will do that to a guy. Watching them do whatever they had to do to make a living - and not snivel while they were doing it - made me who I am. A person that believes 100% in the ability of human beings to do the fantastic. To do the impossible, and not be disuaded from creating greatness because a grumbling few find that the world isn't perfect at accomodating them. Boo-hoo.

 

[C_Yeager]

What do you think of the theory that working class Republicans have, since 1980 essentially voted on cultural issues such as abortion, violence on TV, tough on crime, etc. and against their own economic best interests? As union membership, wages, health care provided by employers and retirements have all decreased in the following years.

I think that not only is this true, but that it works the other way as well. A whole lot of democrats vote on cultural issues as well despite their economic best interests. Despite the fact that the economy effects more people that anything it does seem to be that big of a motivator at the ballot box.

 

[Fred Hansen]

I think that not only is this true, but that it works the other way as well. A whole lot of democrats vote on cultural issues as well despite their economic best interests. Despite the fact that the economy effects more people that anything it does seem to be that big of a motivator at the ballot box.

 

[Tamara]

Essentially, the theory is that the fate of the former middle class is sealed

It is because of people who think that assembly line jobs are a "middle class" occupation that their fate is sealed.

 

[Running Gunfight]

Title of book was...

something like "what is wrong with Kansas", can't remember the author. I am essentially apolitcal as when I do vote, it is often with deep reservations no matter who gets the nod. Like I said, a little jaded. I am just looking for a candidate free from hypocrisy. Let me know if you find any in your lifetime.

 

[faraway]

Some validity to oblique parts of RG's statement. The Republicans very effectively used the middle class tendency to reflex vote on hot button political issues. The Democrats have tried, but the Republicans have done a much better job of using these things. Many of the "hot botton" issues the Democrats have tried to use, are too obtuse/extreme to use well as a element of arousing reflexive voting within middle class America. To illustrate... the Democrats attempt to get bloc voting via Union issues, doesn't work even within most Unions, and the Gay rights thing is a dead letter from the off. An illustration of how well the GOP has used this tactic is the NRA. How often has the NRA delivered, sizeable vote blocs to the GOP, based on one issue? (Which is NRA's job as a focused political lobbying organization-but sometimes it seems they've let their membership be used towards other ends). And, alas, the NRA has pressured their members to follow the line, despite other aspects of the candidate being, in some cases, Oh My God!. For example, Bush and Associates ties to the goings on at Halliburton, Enron, Silverado Savings and etc. The economic price for these gems has been levied more on the remaining middle classes, than on the better off contingent. Or Ashcroft is another example, the dismantling of the constitution will utimately have more effect on the less affluent. True, they'll keep a few guns, but in certain neighborhoods, forget about the sanctity of your home from governmental intrusions.
The Unions, did serve a legitimate function. Although the reasons that they arose, has been forgotten by too many in this country. This relates to the "goons" allusions being made here; it might help to recall that long ago-these organizations did arise as a counterbalance to appalling excesses by predatory business's. Goons begat goons so it seems. Now, the Unions have lost their function, as have many of the rules governing business conduct. Two of the larger power blocs in our society, are playing by rules, for a game which no longer exists.
NEA, whatever. That organization does tend to be the lefts less effective equivalent to the NRA. Being able to deliver large blocs of votes, sometimes to the detriment of it's members individual interests.
And teaching baby ducks to swim?. What does it pay?
And no I'm not in the NEA, nor a Republicrat, and I do pay NRA memberships.

 

[Fred Hansen]

For example, Bush and Associates ties to the goings on at Halliburton, Enron, Silverado Savings and etc. The economic price for these gems has been levied more on the remaining middle classes, than on the better off contingent.

Name one thing Haliburton has done wrong that they haven't been fined for. Enron? You mean the Enron whose management and accounting people got arrested for crimes committed under the Clinton administration? Silverado? I'll see your Silverado, and raise you a Madison Guaranty.

And teaching baby ducks to swim?. What does it pay?

Far too much for a bunch of deadbeats who only work 8 months a year. And far too little for the teachers whose talent is substantially more than just the ability to "collectively bargain". If not for the NEA the aforementioned deadbeats would be so much sawed off dead wood. Then the real teachers could be paid with the windfall from removing the dead wood. The remaining surplus could fund vouchers for families that want their kids to learn something other than proper "fisting" techniques as they do in the People's Demonratic Communewealth of Marxachew****s.

That would be a good day huh? Schools as something other than leftist propaganda camps. I'd pay extra taxes to see that day come to fruition.

NEA, whatever. That organization does tend to be the lefts less effective equivalent to the NRA.

Less effective in what way? As an NRA and Hunter Education instructor I interact with kids taught by minions of the NEA. The propaganda that the kids are fed by their teachers almost defies description. Lots of the kids know that "Heather Has Two Mommies", but can hardly tell you who the first President of our country was... AND THEY LIVE IN WASHINGTON STATE!!! Who needs to deliver voting blocs when one can produce young adults too stupid to live in liberty?

But that is the purpose of class envy; it is there to distract the masses so they don't realize their political and social infrastructure is being undermined and pulled down on their own heads. :barf:

Oh, and don't just take my word for it, just ask Mr. Marx.

 

[faraway]

Fines, gosh what a deterrent!.
The NEA, admittedly a problem. But what drives many of the better potential teachers away from the field, is the ritual requirement of another year in teachers methods courses. Too many don't feel like paying more tuition beyond a Bach or Masters. So many go into other fields, or into academia. Or aren't inclined to put up with the overt indoctrination inherent to some state teachers programs
NEA... Less effective in the sense that NEA isn't able to deliver, as well as NRA, a one issue voting bloc.
And as for asking Karl, too late, he's dead and so are much of the systems which came from his ideology.
Really, in the US, the only meaningful political dilemma, is from what manner of de-facto socialism one hopes to derive guv'ment money. Runs the range from Halliburton Hamburgers, to farm subsidies, to the Public Schools, to the proto-typical welfare mom or social security.
Can't be escaped, and largely the rationale (for many) is claiming that their particular piece of gov'ment largesse, isn't. We've become a postmodern Rome, with our very own 'bread and circuses', and compliant Senate.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Not a union member, never have been likely never will be.

The concept that I've voted against my own economic best interests by voting Republican is laughable.

If you want to know who's responsible for union loss of jobs, look to the unions themselves, NOT the politicians.

 

[raz-0]

Illustrating mike's point, I will give an example from where I work.

We have an operations desk staffed by the members of the computer operator's union. The majority of them have been there for over 10 years, some much longer. At least two of them have other jobs and rarely show up to work on time, if at all, but often buddy punch the time clock. They won't take on new responsibilities, and don't perform the old ones. Due to the union contract, we can't fire them without documenting behavior. Video surveilance or time logging measures beyond a simple time clock are the only way to document the behavior that would allow them to be dismissed. The union won't let us put these in place without renegotiating the contract in very negative terms. On top of that, the workers we DO have that work their butts off can't be promoted if in the union, and can't become full-time if not in the union because these gold bricks are stuck there.

So we don't want to cut wages, we just want to give them to people who deserve it, and we want a job performed for the money we pay. THe union won't let us do that because of their senority rules and their unwillingness to renegotiate a contract allowing us to dump the dead weight. The existing contract does allow us to phase out the department as long as none of the contractual tasks are being perfomed by non-union labor.

Guess what we have been spending a large number of man-hours on in the last 9 months?

We've also had a lot of union manufacturing go away in the area. Was it because of evil corporations, or was it because pushing a lump of steel along an assembly line and bolting some parts into it really isn't a $90,000 a year job?

Heck, I hope the unions get their ass handed to them at the local toll booths. Seniority having first dibs on overtime is a load of crap, as is $117,000 a year for working overtime as a toll taker. Seriously, not jsut the tax payers took it on the teeth in that case, but co-workers who got paid less to begin with who could have used the overtime.

Or howabout shipping ports where you have a job position that ammounts to essentially data entry that is getting $70,000 a year? Even if it requires specialized knowledge like medical records or insurance filing, $70k a year is a bit much. not as obscene as other examples, but enough so that it is obvious why someone would want to get rid of the position if at all possible. (now you move that job to the opposite coast where living expenses are similar, but the number of ports and union contracts with them is greater, and that job all of a sudden is on par with the similar jobs for the medical and insurance fields).

unions cause their own problems in the long run. If someone is doing a crap job, you should be able to pay someone else to do that job. If you need people to work overtime, you shouldn't have to give it to anyone more expensive than you need to. The expensive people are already making a larger base wage to begin with and have no reason to complain if someone else gets some OT and makes 80% of what they do. AS an emplyee, if I want to do something mutually agreeable to me and my employer I don't want to have a group I pay money to to be able to stop me.

AS for the voting aspect. 90% of people operate on emotion before reason, and doubly so when they don't care to take the time or make the effort to really understand a situation that can generate an emotional response. blaming this on one political party or an individual politician is absurd.

 

[Denny Hansen]

"If you want to know who's responsible for union loss of jobs, look to the unions themselves, NOT the politicians."

But gee, Mike, wouldn't that be akin to (gasp) taking personal responsibility?

Denny

 

[LoneStranger]

Laugh, Laugh, Giggle, Giggle!

My experience with Unions and Management and the false concept that you can't fire someone is that what Management is saying is that they are too lazy, or most likely don't understand their labor contract, to remove true deadwood.

If you have people being clocked in by someone else and you really, really, thought that it was a problem you would have a supervisor standing at the clock and watching. You can lock the clocks up except for those hours that employees need access and have a supervisor give access at other times. That you haven't done that says that it is not a problem.

The question of who is deadwood should also be explored. Experience shows that you will find more deadwood in the ranks of upper management than on the shop floor. Example would be to explain how CEO rates multimillion bonus when the company loses money.

Good rule of the thumb is that if Management is getting more than 10 times lowest paid employee you should question to an extreme.

As for class envy, it has become my belief that if the Rich didn't start it, it would not exist.

Like many areas of our society the unions have problems, but as the memberships determine to make changes it will happen. What those changes will be I could not say for every union will have a different situation.

What I do know is that the many believers in Feudalism-Socialism that populate the upper branches of society really do not like it when us working class people can have nice houses and the ability to dress our children in velvet. (If you have a question about the velvet thing PM me and I will explain the story.)

 

[Geoff Timm]

Unions are nothing but fund raising groups for the Democrat Party. Job loss, sure. Guess what, robots do many things better than humans, and do it in miserable conditions.

It always amazed me that Honda (non-union relatively low automation) and Toyota (union and relatively high automation) produced the best cars, quality wise in the USofA, and Chevy with more experience in both building cars and automation and many years of union relations, was such a miserable quality product.

Production line work is tough, unpleasant, and people can make a lot of money putting up with the job. Unfortunatly it's difficult to get some people in managment to understand exactly what they are supposed to be doing. When I was a young lad, Ford and GM required all their management trainees to work on the lines. Among other things they learned the Unions were corrupt.

Ford recently demanded lower prices from it's suppliers. End result: quality took a nose dive. So did sales. This is called modern management.

Politically, so many people are shouting so many slogans, and so damn few understand what they are shouting about.

Geoff
Who sure the heck didn't join a Union that endorsed cutting a quarter million jobs where I work.

 

[Bud Helms]

LoneStranger:

The question of who is deadwood should also be explored. Experience shows that you will find more deadwood in the ranks of upper management than on the shop floor. Example would be to explain how CEO rates multimillion bonus when the company loses money.

I wouldn't bet against your assertion that there is some deadwood at the top of many of the large "for profit" organizations, but multimillion (dollar) bonus(es) do not prove that. It simply is an example of a very highly paid executive. Whether he/she is deadwood would depend on whether he/she contributed to a level that justifies that compensation. The fact that they draw a high salary is not evidence of being deadwood. Not earning your salary would be.

Good rule of the thumb is that if Management is getting more than 10 times lowest paid employee you should question to an extreme.

Where did that number (10 times) come from? Why not double or triple?

As for class envy, it has become my belief that if the Rich didn't start it, it would not exist.

This has me befuddled. Of what, that an average salary maker has, would the rich, excuse me, the Rich, be jealous? By start it, do you mean get rich in the first place?

 

[Shamus]

It's all about money for owners and stockholders.
Manufacturing in my area has moved. China is the preferred exporter. From extrusion dies to Lionel trains to ceramic bathroom fixtures, all are now in China. Want a Werner stepladder; they went to Mexico 6 months ago. 4,000 jobs gone in less that 2 years.
What I still can't believe is that in all the discussions on all of the web sites I visit, nobody cares anymore what the price of gasoline is.
At some point in the not to distant future we will have exported ourselves from middle class to lower class save for the few that either own a business or hold stock.

 

[faraway]

And the situation in China/Mexico, is exactly what happens when incomes polarize at extremes. At that point, the CEO's will often look only at a short term reduction in overhead, and so goes the local wage base.
Even that nee' plus ultra of manufacturing capitalism, Henry Ford wasn't crazed enough to take the approach, now so common, with CEO's. Ford in many ways was a complete *(^^*&%*, especially regarding potential Unions (and the bodies littering the backroads of Ill. vouch for that), and had some major problems with the "Protocols of Zion". But he was smart enough to know that, paying his employees fairly well (for the time) eventually raised sales in the products his own company produced.
There's a certain psychology involved here, essentially overt and unjustified extremes in income...result in a bizarre sense of entitlement. Almost a Roccoco moralism. To which even people like Carnagie and Rockfeller (the first) might have taken issue. That crowd were business piranhas (in some regards) compared to a modern CEO, but they did have a sense of noblisse oblige, which many of their peers today, lack.
Even if they did what good they did (via endowments and etc), was PR, it did go some way in defusing the resentment of extremes.
That's where some of the current crowd of CEO's is going to head into trouble. Without some manner of effective defusing of this perception of the extremes, trouble arises. Be it as base as burning the refinery (which has happened in Africa) or as Machiavellian as new regulations aimed specifically at that industry.
Better not to act in such a manner to ensure Bakunin's or T.R. coming at you in the first place...

 

[LAK]

[Shamus]".... From extrusion dies to Lionel trains to ceramic bathroom fixtures, all are now in China. Want a Werner stepladder; they went to Mexico 6 months ago. 4,000 jobs gone in less that 2 years ...."

... Don't worry; they can all "re-train" and become useful members of the "service industry"

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"We must press on with our agenda for peace and prosperity in every land." - George Bush, to the United Nations General Assembly, November 10, 2001

"Our common border is no longer a line that divides us, but a region that unites our nations, reflecting our common aspirations, value and culture." - Secretary Colin L. Powell, Washington, DC - January 30, 2001