Just some simple ballistic facts to share.

S

Sawyer.N

New member
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

I am posting this thread in response to the recent discussion on .45 and 9mm in the "This store owner is making me buy a .45 now" thread. PLEASE take some time and click that link, line up 9mm against .45. The facts dont lie.

IT IS CLEAR when you look at this data, IF YOU so choose to read through these comprehensive tables, you will see some very obvious, and very negligible differences in .45 vs 9mm. (all data taken from 5 round averages)

Although SOME .45 loads can expand up to a one whole inch, most .45 Loads only expand about .2 inches more than a similar 9mm load. The federal HST loads for example, in 9mm (124 grains) penetrated on a 5 round average 18.1 inches and expanded to .61 inches. The .45 load out of federal hst 230 grain penetrated at 14 inches and expanded to .75 inches.

How important is roughly, .2 inches in expansion to you? Would you rather have .2 inches in expansion and loose a bit of penetration? These common elements can be found through out the tables in the link I have posted.
Its not so much just the damn caliber you carry, but what load and who made that load that matters. some .45 rounds SUCK in terms of penetration and expansion, as do some 9mm rounds.

Look at the facts before yall start preaching .45 acp is the ONLY adequate pistol round for defense. let the attack begin, cheers.
 
How important is roughly, .2 inches in expansion to you?
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It all always comes down to this......expansion, for the sake of expansion, i useless at best and detrimental to the desired effect quite often.

Controlled expansion is what one needs to examine.

Not just does the bullet expand, but, at what point of the bullet's path does the expansion take place.

Anyhow - nice start on the project.

Any plans to expand it to include other calibers?
 
Here's another fact for you luckygunner didn't calibrate the gel so using their findings for a comparison really isn't worth squat.
 
Did they do barrier tests or tests with clothing, also? It would be interesting.

There are just so many factors involved


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The most important ingredient isn't the caliber or the pistol, it's the shooter.
Always has been.
Truly, the gun (and the caliber) is the least of it.
A poor craftsman blames his tools.
'Etc.
 
Here's another fact for you luckygunner didn't calibrate the gel so using their findings for a comparison really isn't worth squat.
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From what I can tell their results match other tests of those same loadings.
 
OP, thanks for sharing the LuckyGunner tests. I've seen these before, but I'm always happen when I see them being publicized.

For years and years, we have all wished that something like this was available: an unbiased, thorough, and somewhat scientific comparison of terminal ballistics. LuckyGunner did a great job keeping consistency so that the actual structural performance of bullets could be compared as realistically as possible (without actually killing anything).

No, it's not perfect... but it's hard to imagine how they could have done this better. I personally found the results very interesting and I was pleased that my personal ammo choices seem to perform as well as could be hoped.

People who bash the LuckyGunner tests are just nitpicking, in my opinion. They went through a lot of work to provide a useful service to the gun community, and I appreciate it.
 
From what I can tell their results match other tests of those same loadings.
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Some do some don't that's the problem.

No, it's not perfect... but it's hard to imagine how they could have done this better.
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Don't take shortcuts, calibrate the gel and don't shoot 5 bullets into the same block.
 
Here's another fact for you luckygunner didn't calibrate the gel so using their findings for a comparison really isn't worth squat.
Click to expand...

As tunnelrat said, his findings are very similar to many other tests, performed by other people.

Plus, I think it was a pretty damned good test. I'm just gonna assume you are getting all angsty because you probably carry .45 and might be getting touched that data shows very little difference between it and 9.
 
Some do some don't that's the problem.
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Would you mind sharing which don't?

and don't shoot 5 bullets into the same block.
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I graduated with a degree in applied math, with a concentration in statistics. I get where you're going with this. But if they had used a fresh block for each of the 5 shots we're talking a massive amount of work. I imagine what is already there took a significant amount of time. With the number of loadings they have multiplied by 5 that's a huge amount of gel. Then you also get into the question of how many times each block should/could be melted down and tested again without affecting the results. At some level you have to accept some limitations. Few of the tests I've ever seen go to that exhaustive of a level of a fresh block for every shot.

I have no skin in this game. If you choose not to accept the results of those tests as invalid that's certainly your call. If you're so inclined you can also preform the same testing to the level you demand on your time. That's not me being flippant, that's reality.
 
I think logic dictates that everything else being equal, a projectile which drills out a permanent wound channel one or two tenths of an inch wider than that of another will, or at least could have greater potential to cause immediate incapacitation. Imagine a projectile that barely misses the upper spinal cord or a major nerve trunk of the dominant extremity, for example.

But again, that assumes everything else being equal: same angle and point of entry, same depth of penetration. The percentage of times that differential in projectile diameter will matter is bound to be very small, and the difference will never be demonstrated in real-life shooting data because the variables cannot be controlled. Not only would the point and angle of entry and the depth of penetration of the projectile need to be equal in two different shootings, the anatomical structure, physiological capacity, and psychological status of the two different individuals being shot would need to be equal.
 
Look at the facts before yall start preaching .45 acp is the ONLY adequate pistol round for defense. let the attack begin, cheers.
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Why would anyone attack you for providing a reference indicating that 9mm or .40 is an adequate defense caliber? That would be rather juvenile :confused:

I was hoping we were beginning to get beyond caliber wars. We all have preferences. I honestly prefer to carry .45acp if I am carrying a duty sized weapon. For EDC CCW, 9mm is tops for a combination of ease, comfort, and effectiveness. I view it as different tools for different jobs. There are different types of hammers. There's a framing/ripping hammer, ball pien hammer, a heavy maul, and brass mallets. Each one serves specific purposes better than others, but can often be used interchangeably. Same goes with firearm calibers, IMO.
 
Why would anyone attack you for providing a reference indicating that 9mm or .40 is an adequate defense caliber
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Honestly, no one has attacked me on the issue. Perhaps I could have made this post without that sentence:eek: I added that sentence mainly because there was a fair bit of misinformation about the .45 acp in the thread about the store owner who shot the robber with a .45.

And you are right, sir, different tools for different folks and jobs. My intent here with this post was to provide information to lead to just the conclusion you have now posted. More so to give facts to back up the fact that 9mm can be just as effective as other loads. Thank you for speakin up!
 
People who bash the LuckyGunner tests are just nitpicking, in my opinion. They went through a lot of work to provide a useful service to the gun community, and I appreciate it.
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Couldn't agree more!
 
This has been debated for over 100 years, this isn't the 1st such test. I've yet to see any data showing 45 having any significant advantage over 9mm when comparable ammo is used. Although some gun writers years ago were famous for making up data with nothing to back it up. In some real studies/tests/research etc. you'll see the 45 win by the narrowest of margins, in others the 9mm has the edge. I concluded years ago that given the same number of rounds you are just as well off with one as the other.

But in the same size gun 9mm will always hold more ammo, penetrate barriers better, cost less and recoil less.
 
Is this discussion like the rifle discussions of whether a light fast bullet is better than a heavy slow bullet? A 230 grain bullet from a 45 ACP at 850 fps vs a 124 grain bullet at 1250 is comparing 28 foot pounds of momentum in the 45 to 22 foot pounds from a 9mm. The old adage "all things being equal bigger bullets are better" comes to mind. In February, 2017 the FBI ran tests to compare the law enforcement ammunition in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP and rendered their findings:
"There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law enforcement auto projectiles from the 9mm through the 45 auto."
The FBI further stated that the 9mm was capable of higher accuracy due, at least in part, to the lighter recoil. All the choices that the military and LE organization seem to use this last statement more than anything else for the reason behind the adoption of the 9mm over other larger calibers.(along with higher magazine capacity)

The wound channel or rather the placement of the wound channel determines the terminal characteristics of the bullet. I have no way to know how much politics plays in any of these determinations, I am sure it plays a part, and I have no idea what bullets were tested or the validity of the comparability of the test data but I am willing to accept the findings.

I will still not carry my 9mm for self defense and I will continue to carry my 357 and 45 Colt instead. In the end it comes down to what you are familiar and proficient with that makes your choice right for you.
 
JMR40 and Shootist, you both just cited the exact message I was trying to convey. I did not do this out of the blue or to continue some long debate that has occurred for years. I simply posted this information in response to some of the misinformed folks that participated in the "this gun store owner is making me buy a 45, thread.
 
I'm doing a .45 vs 9mm comparison war myself. Do I get the g30, or a g34 next... :confused::confused::confused::confused:
I would have to agree with the makes no difference club. Choosing between 9, .40, or .45 is like choosing between a smith, glock or Springfield pistol. All 3 guns/calibers are proven, it all comes down to which of the 3 YOU feel most comfortable with.
 
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