Just picked up a P08 Luger with LOW serial #300...

[roaddog.]

Hey Guys
I'm new here trying to get info, advice, possible value on a pistol I just purchased on a local online auction. Haven't picked it up yet, but it appears to be an early 1913 P08 with a serial number of 300. Know nothing about the history of the pistol. It's engraved, ivory grips & magazine insert. Looks to be in good shape with original holster & extra mag.

Thoughts?

 

[roaddog.]

More pictures

More pictures

 

[roaddog.]

Last of the pictures

Last of the pictures

 

[Martowski]

First of all, do NOT do anything with this pistol in terms of firing it or making ANY changes to it until you figure out what you have. Call Simpson Limited in Galesburg, IL. They are THE premier expert in Lugers in the US and might be able to help you figure out what you have. Another good resource would be Rock Island Auction Company. Depending on what this really is it could be a "nice example" in the range of $2000 or could be a highly valued collector's item worth much, much more than that.

Get as much history as you can on this from the seller from any verifiable source as well. Again, though, I implore you to not listen to anyone who says things like "get out there and shoot it." These aren't run of the mill Gander Mountain Glocks, they are Lugers and could be historically significant. Anything done to this pistol, even aggressive cleaning, could devalue a highly sought after collector's piece to the tune of thousands of dollars.

Let us know what you find out.

 

[Martowski]

And for goodness sakes don't go touching it with your bare hands until you figure out what you have; the oils and acids in your skin could blemish the finish on an over 100 year old gun.

 

[Martowski]

Sorry, but one more thought. Your question is better spent on the Luger forum. Most people on this board are not Luger experts.

 

[blchandl2]

You should also check the Luger Forum. They are very knowledgeable but will ask a lot of questions and request a lot of pictures. Deciphering a Luger is not as straightforward as you might think. As other suggested, do not shoot it until you know what you have.

 

[Jim Watson]

Interesting gun, not overdone on the engraving. Kind of rough looking in spots like the takedown lever checkering, maybe kept too long in the holster.

I wonder who Mr/Herr Smith might have been. Loyal Nazi, apparently from the eagle and swastika scrimshaw.

When they blued it after engraving, they got the small "straw" parts, too. Wonder why, the safety, etc., are not engraved.

Pictures show the engraving well, but none of the critical data.
The primary serial number is on the front of the lower receiver under the barrel. Is it exactly 300 without a letter below? Blue Book says the lowest 1913 DWM P08 number on record is 2617 and the lowest 1913 Erfurt is 575.
They started putting stock lugs on P08s during 1913 so yours is from the first part of the year.

It started out with a chamber date and a center toggle maker's logo. Were those removed in favor of engraving coverage?

 

[44 AMP]

but it appears to be an early 1913 P08 with a serial number of 300

I'll dig out my Standard Catalog of Luger tomorrow, and take a good look, but nothing I saw in the pics says 1913 (or 300) to me. Did see a couple of matching parts wit "00", and I'm not doubting you, just wondering what it is on the gun that ID's it to you.

The markings on the top would be a big help, if not obliterated by the engraving..

one thing I can tell you is that those grips were not done as any kind of Nazi presentation piece. So if they tell you they were, they're selling you a STORY.

IF there's a claim its a special Nazi presentation piece, and therefore worth more, its BS.
The flying eagle with swastika is the Luftwaffe style but who ever did it, while artistically talented, was historically challenged.

The Swastika on the left grip panel is backwards!!!!

I could be wrong, but the pics give me the feeling that the gun was something someone tried to fake as a Nazi presentation piece.

 

[reddog81]

I'd defenitely research and find out what it is before doing much with it but there's no need to go overboard and not touch it. The engraving looks OK but Smith isn't a German last name so I'd guess it was done well after WW2. The refinish on the gun isn't perfect by any means and it looks like there's pitting on the rear along with much of the refinish worn thin.

Are the grips actually ivory? The magazine base looks to be the same material as the grips. If both the magazines are the correct serial number that would be worth quite abit.

 

[dgludwig]

Smith isn't a German last name so I'd guess it was done well after WW2.

Yep, that bothers me as much as anything. Herr Schmidt/Mr. Smith. If what you say is true and it was made after WW2, the serial number can't be correct.

Most people on this board are not Luger experts.

But many are, self excluded , as evidenced by the information already provided by members 44 AMP, Jim Watson and reddog81. They might not be "experts" in Lugers, per se, but they have lots of sound, useful facts to share. But I certainly agree, a visit to the Luger forum is well-advised and should be your first order of business.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Lots of engraving. And it has an recipients name on it. I read there 1914.
Special production
Or
Fake reproduction.

Smith is an english/american name so he must be a very devote Nazi SINCE THEY DID NOT EXIST YET IN 1914.
The Kaiser was still in charge, all hopes were in winning the war and no need for Nazis for veangance of the lost war.

Since it is made before WW1 or at beginning that may be an special order from an private rich person as well and the grips are added later.

I guess some rich german (Jewish banker) wanted to make his american friend a gift of the popular P08 (which supposedly won the american 1911 army trials). Since in 1914 huge amount of the american population were sympathising with the Reich and Central Powers and not so much with the Entente.
Just my opinion.

 

[Chris_B]

Hi guys.

While it is true that "Smith" is not what we think of as a German last name, let's pause.

Hans Ekkehard Bob was a 60 victory Luftwaffe ace. I'm not saying "Smith" is a German last name. I'm saying let's not jump to conclusions.

Also, re: the date and grips. It is possible that the engraving was done in 1914, and the grips were added in the 1940s.

I urge us all to not make assumptions.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I don't find anywhere Bob was an american Jadgflieger.
According to Wikipedia he was Born and died in Germany.
As I understand about 1870 they voted in the USA if the US language would be English or German. The Germans lost but just barely. Around 1870 lots of People spoke german as their main language in the US but that faded away and by 1914 basically nobody would speak their "old world" language anymore (discrimination if they hear another word than english).

In 1914 the english speaking US Establishment (not to say Politicians) pushed their political Agenda against the Kaiser and so on envents unfolded as we know them.

Looking again to the last Picture that seems to me like CAST IRON/STEEL.
It states there:
Meyer&Abitzsch
Leipzig Gohlis
1914

That writing is NOT recessed but raised. As if it were cast steel.
I hope it is cast steel and not cast iron.

Don't know if they used to cast steel their guns back then.
The writing at least Looks very similar to cast iron pots of today.

Would not shoot it before knowing it was actually steel.

The decoration lets assume it is a gift, a very personal gift, for someone.
If it's genuine then there may be just one of These in the world; if it's fake it may be made of cast iron and explode in your Hands.

 

[Jim Watson]

Certainly a 1913 gun could have been reissued for WWII and get a Nazi emblem at the time. Or added by or for a GI in the Occupation.

The Swastika on the left grip panel is backwards!!!!

Mein Gott in Himmell, it is!
I surmise that the eagles were done from tracings, and the scrimshander just flipped his correct right side pattern to do the left.

There are a lot of early post war guns with engraving and gunsmithing, lots of hungry gunmakers in Germany. You could get a lot for some rations, more for cigarettes, lots for nylon hose.

The Meyer & Abitzch stamp is on the holster, not the gun.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

The Pistol may be original.

Here check this: http://www.hermann-historica.de/de/...status=0&Accid=1126&ord=price_d&currentpos=13

Meyer Abitzsch is the manufacturer of the leather Holster.

Pistole 08, DWM 1918, ohne kaiserliche Abnahmen und Beschuss meaning "without imperial markings and no imperial acceptance and no approved by the Kaiser".

The pistol in the link is from 1918 but may be similar history.
These they did NOT sell to the kaiserliche Army because they were not approved and therefore did not have any markings.
Those may be released only to private markets.

Again this is only my deduction what I observe and do not bet on it!

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

OP. To sleep well bring the gun to an expert and let determine it's originality
or
NOT.

Yes I thought the Meyer&Abitsch was on the gun.
Most probable the gun is original and released for the civiliam market only.
If it's not genuine don't shoot it.

 

[spacecoast]

You appear to have a shooter with interesting (although chipped) grips and a nice holster. Probably not worth what you paid for it to most collectors, but if you like it then you did OK and you learned something.

Just so you know, the takedown lever appears to be a replacement (no serial). The safety lever and perhaps the other small parts appear to have been blued and should be strawed (the bluing can be removed with vinegar if you wish). The "low" serial number of 300 is not really meaningful as they started over every 10,000 guns and added a letter suffix (military guns), starting again with no suffix the following year and going to a, b, c, etc.

Also, if by any chance the rear toggle pin is serialized, then it's an indication that the gun was reworked by Mauser in the 1930s (which could also be the source of the takedown lever replacement, although Mauser would likely have numbered it). I have a 1920/18 DWM gun with a numbered (not original) toggle pin.

 

[Chris_B]

I don't find anywhere Bob was an american Jadgflieger.

This may be- just possibly- due to the fact that nobody suggested he was American.

Please read all of my previous comment.

 

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

Chris B,

I may not have gotten your Point.

But Bob can be very well an german surname as well as an english one. But certainly is more common in english speaking societies. BTW intermarrying was as well an Option (not in the case of Herr Bob) and as well changing names as did Hitler himself (he was actually called Huedler or Huettler and before that even his surename was Schicklgruber. After those changes he settled on Hitler). Remember in those days not all People could read and write (for examble around 1900 a wast mayority of French speaking Canada, Quebec, did not know to read an write hence they did not know to spell their surname neighter).

It was common foreign Born Germans to enlist in the Kaisers Army to help the Vaterland (People from german comunities of Mexico joined, Germans from Argentina, etc.).
Same did english to help their fatherland considered USA, Canada, Australia are only some sort of colonies for the english subjects of Her Majesty the Queen of England.
If you spake english and were Born of White english parents, you are english and enlist in the Queens Army.
Same Blood Ancestry rule was followed by the Germans.

If the gun is really genuine then it is most likely an Trophy-gift for the winner of an Shooting competition (en english or american may have won that)
or
an Special order from an private Person for him or others (as a gift).

The ornaments for me are allowing only for the gun as an gift or Exposition model for rich People.