Just how stupid is NATO?
- Thread starter Futo Inu
- Start date
From: Ivan8883 6-15-99 516PM EDT Chink, It is not the Russians we must worry about . The danger is that ONe World Nato Army and Air Force that now declares since the big meeting in DC last month that they have the right to intervene anywhere on God's Earth;whether free nations or provinces within nations! Maybe next time it will be Texas or Montana that Klinton and the One System thinks is in rebellion against tjhe Global Plantation that is quickly being set up in Europe, US, and South America. Russia is reacting bravely against this menace to world freedom,but corrupt governments in Hungary, Romania, and Bulgariaalthough against the wishes of peoples in these lands, wont let Russia reinforce her small contigent at Pristina Airport. Patiotic generals in our counrtyand few honest politicians must get US out of that Beast System Nato now. If we do not get out soon, Nato will attack Russians at airport and then Russia, with her powerful Sub Fleet and Many mobile missile s will be forced to act and our chances,since Klinton jhas basically destroyed US military(FLeet down to less than 300 ships,only 10 divisions left and most understrength,no more nuclear Armed B52's in the air,no aircraft carriers left in the former American Lake(Pacific Ocean),land based US Missiles forced to take a first strikebecause of Klinton directive in 1996,
ur chances do not look good. These statistics of our military weaknesses do not lie and Klinton knows it very well.It has been planned this way because America and her many independent people and states also stand in the way of the One System and the Global Plantation being formed. Like Serbia with her gold mines near Pristina which big Banksters covet,American patriots stand in the way of the Globalists. The sad part is that there are few patriots in the Congress or in the military(High command) They seem to be happy collecting their fat paychecks while Rome(USA) Burns. Ivan
I don't wonder about how stupid NATO is. I wonder about how stupid WE are.
What's with the term "ethnic cleansing"? Who came up with it and why are we swallowing it and mouthing it? Is it the new world order hate crime of the day? Wouldn't "tribal warfare" be a more precise term?
Killing is killling, murder is murder, slaughter is slaughter, political motivation is just and only that...whether it be in Kosovo or Waco, TX. And war should be war. A declared one with clear objectives.
Watch your words folks; and think about them. Don't fall into the politico media speak, lest we get lazy about our thinking.
What's with the term "ethnic cleansing"? Who came up with it and why are we swallowing it and mouthing it? Is it the new world order hate crime of the day? Wouldn't "tribal warfare" be a more precise term?
Killing is killling, murder is murder, slaughter is slaughter, political motivation is just and only that...whether it be in Kosovo or Waco, TX. And war should be war. A declared one with clear objectives.
Watch your words folks; and think about them. Don't fall into the politico media speak, lest we get lazy about our thinking.
Frank Haertlein
Moderator
A different point of view..............
A few facts to put things into prospective.
Nuclear proliferation is a fact and is getting worse.
There is a lot of plutonium unaccounted for or missing.
There is danger in some middle east countries getting nuclear weapons. (Iraq's nuclear reactors were bombed by Isreal before getting online in order to deny them the capability to make nuclear weapons).
The Arab/Isreal qestion will only be settled with force. Arabs hate the Isrealies.
The UN security council does not always vote with the US in US interests and Isreal's interests.
NATO has taken on a new role, one from defensive to offensive and now has a reason to exist for reasons other than simply protecting the US from Russia.
There has been a new precedent set by using NATO instead of the UN for things like Kosovo. (China and Russia have NO veto power with NATO. Both China and Russia would likely veto intervention in Kosovo (and have) or veto intervention for Isreal.
OK, so now you have the new precedent of NATO doing the work of what the UN is supposed to do, you no longer have to fear the Chinese or Russian veto in order to intervene in areas like Kosovo because China and Russia have no control over NATO nor any say so with it (with the emerging threat of nuclear proliferation and countries like Iraq getting nuclear weapons and susequently targeting Isreal), you have a situation where the precedent has been set to use NATO to protect countries like Isreal and other peoples from nuclear destruction, ethnic cleansing or genocide by the use of American and NATO soldiers(as long as it's not in Africa or Cambodia or Sri Lanka or Turkey or Uganda or Pakistan or Iraq, etc). Since we used NATO in Kosovo, by default it is now OK to do it for other countries like Isreal. Look for more of this in the future. Russia poses and interesting twist and will come around to the US position (mark my words although it may take some time).
The precedent has been set and the US, Isreal, Britan and the NATO countries can now take action anywhere in the world for most any reason they deem necessary and the UN has no say so whatsoever. The US can still look like its part of the UN in order to make the rest of the world happy, yet we can now use our forces for actions that would be vetoed by Russia and China in the UN. Isreal may very well be next as a country to be attacked as that old ARAB/ISRAEL problem can never be resolved except with the use of force.
US corporations were developing an anti-ballistic missle system for Israel long before the US was developing those systems for itself ( the "THEL" laser system...Theatre High Energy Laser).
The Arabs would likely use nuclear weapons against Israel should they get their hands on these weapons and NOW we can intervene with American troops using NATO. China and Russia WOULD likley veto any UN action in this theatre. This whole thing is about protecting Isreal in case of future attack by the Arabs. The point is that US politicians, like bill clinton, bend over backwards to aid the Israelies because if they piss them off then the US media (controlled mostly by jews) would destroy their political careers. Its happened before and will happen again.
My predictions for the future are........
A Republican president for the next presidential elections.
Losses in both the house and the senate resulting in democratic majorities and control of both the house and the senate.
The economy is going to "go to hell" with lots of inflation.
Republicans will get the blame for it resulting in further losses in both the house and senate.
If Isreal gets attacked or is hit with a nuclear bomb, the US will go to war in a major way to save Isreal and the US media will support it like it has never supported anything before.
Gun control will become a reality.
More precious American freedoms will be lost as terrorists engage on attacks on US soil with, possibly, both nuclear and biological attacks. Martial law will be declared.
Personally, I hope I am wrong on all accounts. I have more predictions but will save them for later.
Also, (I need to say this or I will be attacked unfairly) I am not an anti-semite. What I do beleive in is protecting American lives and NOT have them used up to fight the battles of the entire world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited June 16, 1999).]
A few facts to put things into prospective.
Nuclear proliferation is a fact and is getting worse.
There is a lot of plutonium unaccounted for or missing.
There is danger in some middle east countries getting nuclear weapons. (Iraq's nuclear reactors were bombed by Isreal before getting online in order to deny them the capability to make nuclear weapons).
The Arab/Isreal qestion will only be settled with force. Arabs hate the Isrealies.
The UN security council does not always vote with the US in US interests and Isreal's interests.
NATO has taken on a new role, one from defensive to offensive and now has a reason to exist for reasons other than simply protecting the US from Russia.
There has been a new precedent set by using NATO instead of the UN for things like Kosovo. (China and Russia have NO veto power with NATO. Both China and Russia would likely veto intervention in Kosovo (and have) or veto intervention for Isreal.
OK, so now you have the new precedent of NATO doing the work of what the UN is supposed to do, you no longer have to fear the Chinese or Russian veto in order to intervene in areas like Kosovo because China and Russia have no control over NATO nor any say so with it (with the emerging threat of nuclear proliferation and countries like Iraq getting nuclear weapons and susequently targeting Isreal), you have a situation where the precedent has been set to use NATO to protect countries like Isreal and other peoples from nuclear destruction, ethnic cleansing or genocide by the use of American and NATO soldiers(as long as it's not in Africa or Cambodia or Sri Lanka or Turkey or Uganda or Pakistan or Iraq, etc). Since we used NATO in Kosovo, by default it is now OK to do it for other countries like Isreal. Look for more of this in the future. Russia poses and interesting twist and will come around to the US position (mark my words although it may take some time).
The precedent has been set and the US, Isreal, Britan and the NATO countries can now take action anywhere in the world for most any reason they deem necessary and the UN has no say so whatsoever. The US can still look like its part of the UN in order to make the rest of the world happy, yet we can now use our forces for actions that would be vetoed by Russia and China in the UN. Isreal may very well be next as a country to be attacked as that old ARAB/ISRAEL problem can never be resolved except with the use of force.
US corporations were developing an anti-ballistic missle system for Israel long before the US was developing those systems for itself ( the "THEL" laser system...Theatre High Energy Laser).
The Arabs would likely use nuclear weapons against Israel should they get their hands on these weapons and NOW we can intervene with American troops using NATO. China and Russia WOULD likley veto any UN action in this theatre. This whole thing is about protecting Isreal in case of future attack by the Arabs. The point is that US politicians, like bill clinton, bend over backwards to aid the Israelies because if they piss them off then the US media (controlled mostly by jews) would destroy their political careers. Its happened before and will happen again.
My predictions for the future are........
A Republican president for the next presidential elections.
Losses in both the house and the senate resulting in democratic majorities and control of both the house and the senate.
The economy is going to "go to hell" with lots of inflation.
Republicans will get the blame for it resulting in further losses in both the house and senate.
If Isreal gets attacked or is hit with a nuclear bomb, the US will go to war in a major way to save Isreal and the US media will support it like it has never supported anything before.
Gun control will become a reality.
More precious American freedoms will be lost as terrorists engage on attacks on US soil with, possibly, both nuclear and biological attacks. Martial law will be declared.
Personally, I hope I am wrong on all accounts. I have more predictions but will save them for later.
Also, (I need to say this or I will be attacked unfairly) I am not an anti-semite. What I do beleive in is protecting American lives and NOT have them used up to fight the battles of the entire world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited June 16, 1999).]
A lot of you aren't going to like to hear this but perhaps the real problem here lies with the American people themselves. The US military has time and time again in the last few decades allowed itself to be used for purposes that are blatently unconstitutional (along with often being immoral and politically unwise such as Lebanon, Panama, Somalia, Yugoslavia etc.etc.etc.). Knowing this, why is there not more dissent within the military? Why does the military have a steady stream of recruits? If people didn't go along with this crap it wouldn't happen.
Along with this why are most Americans so cowardly and fearful of sounding unpatriotic that even though they don't like what is going on all they can do when this stuff happens is babble about how we have to "support the boys"? It seems to me that the "boys" are adults and they have made a choice. If a pilot knowingly bombs civiians (which many of these guys in Yug. knowingly did) it is because he values his economic future and the ability to fly a forty million dollar toy more than he values the US constitution and innocent life. If a guy on a destroyer fires off a a cruise missle at a city it is because he values money for college, travel, and a low paying job more than he values the Constitution and innocent life.
I asked a guy at work recently (a reservist) why he wanted to go to Kosovo. His reply was that he wanted veterans benefits! This is a perfect example of a guy willing to throw notions of right and wrong out the window so he could have future economic advancement (a few points on promotion test) and make himself more interesting at army buddy get-togethers. Discusting.
Along with this why are most Americans so cowardly and fearful of sounding unpatriotic that even though they don't like what is going on all they can do when this stuff happens is babble about how we have to "support the boys"? It seems to me that the "boys" are adults and they have made a choice. If a pilot knowingly bombs civiians (which many of these guys in Yug. knowingly did) it is because he values his economic future and the ability to fly a forty million dollar toy more than he values the US constitution and innocent life. If a guy on a destroyer fires off a a cruise missle at a city it is because he values money for college, travel, and a low paying job more than he values the Constitution and innocent life.
I asked a guy at work recently (a reservist) why he wanted to go to Kosovo. His reply was that he wanted veterans benefits! This is a perfect example of a guy willing to throw notions of right and wrong out the window so he could have future economic advancement (a few points on promotion test) and make himself more interesting at army buddy get-togethers. Discusting.
Well, the military may have a steady stream of recruits, but it's not enough to counter the hemmorhaging of great masses of people leaving, which is often explained by the poor and declining morale in essentially every nook and cranny of the military.
Every part of the military is behind in its recruiting efforts, behind on its retention goals, and all agree that family separations to stand in the mud somewhere and be "peacekeepers" (Who decided that was a job for a warrior?) are a major part of the reason. Whether that includes the morality of what they're asked to do or simply the stress and discomfort, I haven't heard addressed.
Every part of the military is behind in its recruiting efforts, behind on its retention goals, and all agree that family separations to stand in the mud somewhere and be "peacekeepers" (Who decided that was a job for a warrior?) are a major part of the reason. Whether that includes the morality of what they're asked to do or simply the stress and discomfort, I haven't heard addressed.
I have to agree. I just left the Nat'l Guard, and our retention and recruiting levels are at an all time low. A lot of it is due to uncertainty over where/how the Guard maight be deployed, especially with dwindling active-duty troop levels.
As far as why a pilot drops bombs or a sailor fires a missle, that is a very "distant" aspect of war. The target is either a green blob on a FLIR, or a set of numbers in the computer. i heard the Navy did not even know the identity of it's missles targets. I also do not believe we knowingly bombed civilians. Sure, we dropped them in areas where they may have been "collateral damage" but no pilot said "Hey look! A refugee convoy!! I'm gonna sprinkle some CBUs on their a$$es!" Anyway, the point I'm getting at is it is one thing for a sailor to throw a switch, but quite another for a platoon leader to order his to troops to, for example, fire on US citizens.
As far as why a pilot drops bombs or a sailor fires a missle, that is a very "distant" aspect of war. The target is either a green blob on a FLIR, or a set of numbers in the computer. i heard the Navy did not even know the identity of it's missles targets. I also do not believe we knowingly bombed civilians. Sure, we dropped them in areas where they may have been "collateral damage" but no pilot said "Hey look! A refugee convoy!! I'm gonna sprinkle some CBUs on their a$$es!" Anyway, the point I'm getting at is it is one thing for a sailor to throw a switch, but quite another for a platoon leader to order his to troops to, for example, fire on US citizens.
I think that the high altitude bombing and target selection was done to hurt civillians which included intentional killing/targeting of civillians.
Doing it from above or on the ground makes no difference except to the folks metting out the slaughter. They simply face more physical and psychological danger on the ground.
[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited June 16, 1999).]
Doing it from above or on the ground makes no difference except to the folks metting out the slaughter. They simply face more physical and psychological danger on the ground.
[This message has been edited by Prichard (edited June 16, 1999).]
Frank,
Unfortunately, I can think of much more to support your predictions than to
counter them. Oh, for a frontier to escape to....
All,
Military not meeting enlistment and retention goals.
In my own small way, I am part of the reason that fewer people volunteer for military service. I ensured my daughters were fully aware that:
1) Promises made by our government (and its military representatives) are every bit as trustworthy as the promises made to the American Indians. I believe it was Chief Red Cloud who said, “The white man made us many promises, more than we could count. He kept but one. He said he would take our land, and he took it.”
- Promised free medical care, dental care, eyeglasses, etc. are benefits rarely
obtainable. The $460/yr “free” medical care is so regimented and time-consuming
that it is virtually impossible for a working person to receive promised benefits. It is more useful for “catastrophic” coverage than routine medical care. Most working retirees in my area use the medical plans provided by their employers. Usually, only truly “retired” retirees have the time required to receive their “benefits”. Dental care and eyeglasses are virtually impossible to obtain for most retirees.
- Military retiree pay is pegged at several percentage points below the Consumer
Price Index, which (in turn) is rigged NOT to show true inflation.
- Any difference in prices between Commissary/BX/PX prices and the prices at
K-Mart/Wal-Mart/etc. is negated by the losses and expenses involved with every
PCS (Permanent Change of Station) move.
- There’s more, but I must remember my blood pressure.
2) American troops are used as chattel, as cannon fodder, with the first goal of
furthering the political aspirations of individuals, political parties in various
governments, and the inexorable march toward a world ruling body which will negate our Constitution and American way of life. Fighting for democracy, for “nation-building”, or to “stop the killing” is often, perhaps usually, a mere subterfuge.
3) The American military may be called upon by our perfidious (odiferous, traitorous) government to subjugate the American people by force.
4) So, what once was a honorable calling is now corrupted by the power hungry.
“It’s Johnny this and Johnny that.... but Johnny ain’t no bloody fool.”
And many youngsters just don’t want, to die for others’ “World rule”.
“Cause war is rough, you must be tough, to kill and burn and pillage.
Our youngsters ain’t such bloody fools, to believe, “It takes a village.”
When my daughters were graduated from high school, they were plagued with calls from military recruiters. Their most common retort was, “After what you’ve done to my Dad? You’ve got to be kidding.” If you MUST work for a bunch of liars, it’s better to work as a civilian so you can walk out when you begin to puke.
Mencken said something to the effect, “It is honorable for men to die for a cause.
How much more honorable it would be if the cause were also honorable.” (I don’t
have the exact quote...)
I understand some people are successful in the military. Well, the higher-up
positions must be filled by someone. I also understand some people win lotteries. They’re both a sucker bet.
I’ll promise you this: If you are a person of integrity, a person who addresses the
stated goals of your service branch and respects the true needs of your
subordinates and their families, you have little potential for real advancement in the
military. If you want to get ahead in the military, you must make your bosses look
good, never rock the boat, never point out problems or fallacies in the status quo;
you must “go with the program”, have a “Can Do!” attitude, etc. The military,
from the top down, is ruled by “careerists” who do the right thing for themselves
and address military goals ONLY when it suits their careers. I’ve seen it too many
times to judge otherwise. Even with Colin Powell - a gentleman whom I otherwise
truly admire and respect. (See “My American Journey” by Gen. Powell.)
The military is a travesty to the many men and women who serve with integrity, honor, and valor. Our military needs:
1) A Gen. Patton, Gen. LeMay, or someone similar, as the head of the military.
2) A President who understands the needs, abilities, and proper use of a military.
3) A Congress who will fund a military properly.
4) A nation that demands, DEMANDS the military be re-conditioned thoroughly and used ONLY when American needs are involved. (Not "interests", but "needs"!)
Will we get all this? "Never happen, G.I.!"
It’s the status quo. It’s deja vu all over again.
Vote - for a change.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 16, 1999).]
Unfortunately, I can think of much more to support your predictions than to
counter them. Oh, for a frontier to escape to....
All,
Military not meeting enlistment and retention goals.
In my own small way, I am part of the reason that fewer people volunteer for military service. I ensured my daughters were fully aware that:
1) Promises made by our government (and its military representatives) are every bit as trustworthy as the promises made to the American Indians. I believe it was Chief Red Cloud who said, “The white man made us many promises, more than we could count. He kept but one. He said he would take our land, and he took it.”
- Promised free medical care, dental care, eyeglasses, etc. are benefits rarely
obtainable. The $460/yr “free” medical care is so regimented and time-consuming
that it is virtually impossible for a working person to receive promised benefits. It is more useful for “catastrophic” coverage than routine medical care. Most working retirees in my area use the medical plans provided by their employers. Usually, only truly “retired” retirees have the time required to receive their “benefits”. Dental care and eyeglasses are virtually impossible to obtain for most retirees.
- Military retiree pay is pegged at several percentage points below the Consumer
Price Index, which (in turn) is rigged NOT to show true inflation.
- Any difference in prices between Commissary/BX/PX prices and the prices at
K-Mart/Wal-Mart/etc. is negated by the losses and expenses involved with every
PCS (Permanent Change of Station) move.
- There’s more, but I must remember my blood pressure.
2) American troops are used as chattel, as cannon fodder, with the first goal of
furthering the political aspirations of individuals, political parties in various
governments, and the inexorable march toward a world ruling body which will negate our Constitution and American way of life. Fighting for democracy, for “nation-building”, or to “stop the killing” is often, perhaps usually, a mere subterfuge.
3) The American military may be called upon by our perfidious (odiferous, traitorous) government to subjugate the American people by force.
4) So, what once was a honorable calling is now corrupted by the power hungry.
“It’s Johnny this and Johnny that.... but Johnny ain’t no bloody fool.”
And many youngsters just don’t want, to die for others’ “World rule”.
“Cause war is rough, you must be tough, to kill and burn and pillage.
Our youngsters ain’t such bloody fools, to believe, “It takes a village.”
When my daughters were graduated from high school, they were plagued with calls from military recruiters. Their most common retort was, “After what you’ve done to my Dad? You’ve got to be kidding.” If you MUST work for a bunch of liars, it’s better to work as a civilian so you can walk out when you begin to puke.
Mencken said something to the effect, “It is honorable for men to die for a cause.
How much more honorable it would be if the cause were also honorable.” (I don’t
have the exact quote...)
I understand some people are successful in the military. Well, the higher-up
positions must be filled by someone. I also understand some people win lotteries. They’re both a sucker bet.
I’ll promise you this: If you are a person of integrity, a person who addresses the
stated goals of your service branch and respects the true needs of your
subordinates and their families, you have little potential for real advancement in the
military. If you want to get ahead in the military, you must make your bosses look
good, never rock the boat, never point out problems or fallacies in the status quo;
you must “go with the program”, have a “Can Do!” attitude, etc. The military,
from the top down, is ruled by “careerists” who do the right thing for themselves
and address military goals ONLY when it suits their careers. I’ve seen it too many
times to judge otherwise. Even with Colin Powell - a gentleman whom I otherwise
truly admire and respect. (See “My American Journey” by Gen. Powell.)
The military is a travesty to the many men and women who serve with integrity, honor, and valor. Our military needs:
1) A Gen. Patton, Gen. LeMay, or someone similar, as the head of the military.
2) A President who understands the needs, abilities, and proper use of a military.
3) A Congress who will fund a military properly.
4) A nation that demands, DEMANDS the military be re-conditioned thoroughly and used ONLY when American needs are involved. (Not "interests", but "needs"!)
Will we get all this? "Never happen, G.I.!"
It’s the status quo. It’s deja vu all over again.
Vote - for a change.
[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited June 16, 1999).]
From: Ivan8883 6-16-99 554 PM EDt I can see by these great comments that more and more people are understanding how the Globalistwho have put in power a man ,Klinton,who has nearly completed decades of planning of the destruction of America:her political system(we are now a mob demoracy and one small step from Dictatorship)ccorrupted,economic system nearly destroyed(Factories nearly all gone fromour shores,US military as a independent and powerful force to defend our nation nearly turned into a ONE World Military to terrorize not only other nations but its own people (IT has become a mercenary force with probably. foreign mercenaries already init,and controled by Lackey generals like Shelton and Clark who, I have been told are no more than martinetsand will do anything to appease their boss(Real bosses are Elite Bankstersrunning the One System). The sad truth is that the US Govenment is one big corporation and we citizens are its indentured serfs! I had a dream: American Nationalist took back their country from the Banksters,foreign and domestic,Abolished the Federal Reserve System which has put us into economic slavery for the last86 years(huge debt,fiat money 2big world wars and a third on the way(allplanned a century ago or more by the predicessors of our present day elites),brought our industries back from outside the nation,and had major trials of the many traitors,(political,social and military) still around who have berought our nation to the edge of destruction. Then I woke up. After all , it was only a dream. Ivan