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Judge rules machine gun ownership constitutional
- Thread starter 2wheelwander
- Start date
Of course it's constitutional just pay $200 tax
And fill out the form(s) provide fingerprints, (photographs??) get permission from the head of your local LEO (in writing), pass the background checks, and wait how long? Months???
Tell me what other constitutional right requires this??
Of course it's constitutional just pay $200 tax
Next point is "just pay the tax". You can't. The govt will not accept it, today.
Between 1934 and 1968, having an unregistered, untaxed machine gun was essentially treated as a tax matter, and you could register the gun, pay the tax, and get on with your life with your gun.
About 1968 the govt decided that wasn't enough, and not paying the tax on a machine gun became a criminal matter. And, in 1986, the govt closed the civilian machine gun registry, which prevents any new (or newly discovered) machine guns from being registered and so you can't pay the tax, and register the gun.
Again, tell me any other constitutional right that, BY LAW the govt refuses to acknowledge....
I did some further thinking about the speed limit analogy, and realized the major flaw using it in this case. And that flaw is, speed limits only apply to public roads.
The defendant was going to be charged with possession of illegal machine guns. They were deemed illegal because they weren't registered and the tax had not been paid. (and, under the law, if not registered before May 19 1986 you can't).
Now here's a point, you can possess an automobile, without registration, or paying any taxes, or fees, that is legal. You can't legally operate it on PUBLIC roads without it being licensed and the fees paid, but you can possess it on your property and even operate it on your property without registration and payment. Again, not a perfect analogy, but closer to the matter at hand, I think.
Swifty Morgan
New member
People "just paid" poll taxes.
Swifty Morgan
New member
I don't see any evidence there has been a notice of appeal. What's the explanation? Is the BATF afraid the Tenth Circuit will affirm?
Can they keep this man's guns if the case, which appears to have been based solely on POSSESSION, is allowed to stand? Can they confiscate anyone else's guns in similar cases in the 10th Circuit's area if they don't appeal? It sounds like an invitation to people who like putting the law to the test.
I'm sure they'll appeal. They're probably amazed they lost.
I have never practiced criminal law in a federal court, but the court published a guide saying the government must appeal criminal decisions within 30 days. I don't know why they're waiting. They should have plenty of time to work on their case while they're going through all the business of preparing the record and so on. I would think they would want to file their notice in a hurry in hopes of nipping this in the bud.
It would be pretty wild if the 10th Circuit affirmed per curiam and didn't write an opinion. Everyone would be entitled to make guesses until new decisions came out. I assume they'll reverse and provide an opinion making it as clear as possible that 922(o) bans possession, constitutionally.
I wonder where Mr. Morgan is. I don't know if he was out on bail all this time or what. There is very little information out there, and I am not going to mess with activating my PACER account to see what I can get from the court.
I have no idea where federal defendants go when their cases are dismissed, in situations where appeal is possible. Let's Google. Okay; web sources suggest a defendant who is in custody will have to stay locked up during appeal in certain cases. They also say judges can mess with defendants, putting conditions on their release during appeal.
If I were being paid, I would get serious and provide a quality analysis. This post is just me shooting from the hip.
Can they keep this man's guns if the case, which appears to have been based solely on POSSESSION, is allowed to stand? Can they confiscate anyone else's guns in similar cases in the 10th Circuit's area if they don't appeal? It sounds like an invitation to people who like putting the law to the test.
I'm sure they'll appeal. They're probably amazed they lost.
I have never practiced criminal law in a federal court, but the court published a guide saying the government must appeal criminal decisions within 30 days. I don't know why they're waiting. They should have plenty of time to work on their case while they're going through all the business of preparing the record and so on. I would think they would want to file their notice in a hurry in hopes of nipping this in the bud.
It would be pretty wild if the 10th Circuit affirmed per curiam and didn't write an opinion. Everyone would be entitled to make guesses until new decisions came out. I assume they'll reverse and provide an opinion making it as clear as possible that 922(o) bans possession, constitutionally.
I wonder where Mr. Morgan is. I don't know if he was out on bail all this time or what. There is very little information out there, and I am not going to mess with activating my PACER account to see what I can get from the court.
I have no idea where federal defendants go when their cases are dismissed, in situations where appeal is possible. Let's Google. Okay; web sources suggest a defendant who is in custody will have to stay locked up during appeal in certain cases. They also say judges can mess with defendants, putting conditions on their release during appeal.
If I were being paid, I would get serious and provide a quality analysis. This post is just me shooting from the hip.
Not being any kind of lawyer, I'm confused, can one appeal a dismissal???
I know a ruling and a verdict can be appealed, but a dismissal means there was no case brought before the court, so no ruling on the case and no verdict is possible.
Isn't the thing to do when a case is dismissed is for the prosecution to refile the charges as a different case?? (assuming the dismissal is without prejudice?)
Why would you appeal, and actually what is there to appeal???
Also, seems to me that if no charges are brought to court (per the dismissal) then the defendant (if held) should be free to go, and with his property.
If not, WHY not, and please, if possible frame your answers in terms non-lawyers can comprehend.
I know a ruling and a verdict can be appealed, but a dismissal means there was no case brought before the court, so no ruling on the case and no verdict is possible.
Isn't the thing to do when a case is dismissed is for the prosecution to refile the charges as a different case?? (assuming the dismissal is without prejudice?)
Why would you appeal, and actually what is there to appeal???
Also, seems to me that if no charges are brought to court (per the dismissal) then the defendant (if held) should be free to go, and with his property.
If not, WHY not, and please, if possible frame your answers in terms non-lawyers can comprehend.
Swifty Morgan
New member
It's late, but...as a prosecutor, you can appeal a dismissal in a criminal case under certain circumstances. In this case, I assume the BATF would claim the judge interpreted the law incorrectly.
You would appeal to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is the last layer before the Supreme Court.
Filing a new case would not be appropriate. The old case isn't dead yet.
The judge didn't conclude no charges were brought. He concluded a machine gun was not "dangerous and unusual" under the law, so it was unlawful to apply 922(o) to mere possession.
This is a somewhat complicated topic, and I would have to sit around and do something resembling real research in order to give you a real quality answer. This weekend is not the time. Way too busy. What you really need is to have a criminal lawyer who works in the federal courts write an explanation. Maybe there is someone on the forum who does that kind of work.
You would appeal to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which is the last layer before the Supreme Court.
Filing a new case would not be appropriate. The old case isn't dead yet.
The judge didn't conclude no charges were brought. He concluded a machine gun was not "dangerous and unusual" under the law, so it was unlawful to apply 922(o) to mere possession.
This is a somewhat complicated topic, and I would have to sit around and do something resembling real research in order to give you a real quality answer. This weekend is not the time. Way too busy. What you really need is to have a criminal lawyer who works in the federal courts write an explanation. Maybe there is someone on the forum who does that kind of work.
2wheelwander
New member
Really appreciate those properly educated chiming in here. Interesting to follow.