JOHN MCCAIN--TURNCOAT

Licensed dealers can NOT sell a gun at a gun show without a background check.

This amendment wants to mandate that anyone wanting to sell private property (a gun) at a public gathering (a gun show) would have to get the government's permission to conduct the transaction (a background check).

How would you feel if you had to pick up the phone and call the state police from your home in order to sell someone a firearm in your living room?
 
I'll give this one last go, then hold my peace.

If someone is identified via Brady as not qualified to buy a gun from the dealer at Table A, is it in the public interest that he be able to walk over to the private seller at Table B and buy the gun?

For the vast, vast majority of people, the question answers itself. Are they wrong? I don't think they're wrong. I don't want the guy buying that gun either. Do you? Does anybody?

It is absolutely true that many people who push this point are out to eliminate gunshows. As citizens of a free country, they have a perfect right to pursue that agenda. They will succeed or fail on the strength of the case they make to a wider public. We help them to succeed by taking a position that we can't defend and that isn't worth defending.

We are going to get rolled on this one, a major defeat and embarrassment that will embolden and give additional momentum to the anti-gunners.
 
Byron, your logic, IMHO, is flawed. Your conclusions regarding our ultimate fate in this debate, however, are sadly, and likely to be correct.


Using your example, it is also not 'in the public interest' that that person be able to buy the gun from his neighbor, or, for that matter, steal the gun during a burglary. So, do we conclude that no private sales can occur without intervention from a government agent ... might as well say 'yes', because that conclusion is coming soon to a Congressman near you. And, therefore we also need 'safe storage' laws, and anyone who cannot buy a safe is out of luck. And then, we'll need to inspect the safe annually, provide a permit sticker for the safe, yada yada yada.

You see, freedom has downsides. Providing some freedom necessitates risk. But, based upon the law of large numbers, that freedom also translates into an overall better, safer society.

This is the problem with so much political discourse today, and we saw it in the debates the other evening. We allow ourselves to be swayed by individual tales of woe. It doesn't matter if the vast, vast majority of firearms are used for legal and good purposes ... and, it doesn't matter if violent crime has been dropping for 25 years. We're going to focus on the criminal uses of firearms, and we're going to pass more laws until there are no criminal uses ... a goal that is unattainable, and carries with it attendant problems, costs and tragedies.

Please take a look at Kopel's work on gun shows. See http://www.i2i.org/CrimJust.htm#Other , and look for Gun Shows about 2/3 of the way down the page. Think about his arguments, and please reconsider what you believe is an obvious conclusion.

I'm under no misconception that other Americans will consider this issue as carefully. We're all 'feeling' our way these days, and no one has time to really consider these issues. Damn shame.

Regards from AZ
 
ANYONE WHO TRUELY BELIEVES THAT BACKGROUND CHECKS AT GUNSHOWS WILL KEEP GUNS OUT OF FELON'S HANDS IS SMOKING CRACK OR A DEMOCRAT!!!
yes i know caps are considered SHOUTING but come on people. this is one of the ways that anti-gunners will try (and succeed) to first
close down gun shows
2nd
try and cease ownership of firearms from semi-auto military looking all the way to your single shot
don't believe me
just wait
 
The entire point on gun shows is this. The goal is to stop all transfers. Gun Shows, and private party. The phrase gun show loophole is so catchy they have us saying it. Little bits and pieces at a time. The real story is how do we keep guns out of the wrong hands if we have private party transfers. As for the dealer transfer. Like it or not, BATF watches what dealers do. The going rate locally is $30. Small price to pay to make sure ATF isn't coming after YOU.

------------------
 
I disagree with many of you on one point
the NICS registration check is not in place to eliminate private transfers its their to record them for later use.
IF you listen at all to the rhetoric of criminals gettting guns at gunshows your ears are too big.
That happens I imgaine as often as criminals buying marajuana from a hospital where its stored without being guarded.
These thugs get thousands of pounds of illegal drugs into this country each year?
no month and were going to assume they go to public gunshows 'convicted felons and rapists even the liberals are saying' to buy their guns???
Right now if you called me and just through conversation told me where you live and what type of guns you have or just have of them.
10 minutes later I could call the FBI and play the whole conversation back to them.
Im a middle class idiot with no hacker knowledge much less the fundnig of the FBI.
You think the BATF is going to have the slightest difficulty recordnig your so called 'background check' for their records.
And while your at it tell me whose even claiming to make certain their eliminate those records this year much less in 3 months.
In colorado were going to lose state registration checks will pass.
Why because were outnumbered SAFE the dot com billionaire one of their state lobbies and the NRA all support the instant gun registration checks for the transfer of private property from currently legal citizens to future criminal and gun owning
enemy of the state and the people.
THAT MEANS YOU.
Byron Ive in 5 years of constantly buying guns now been able to buy a remmington pump shotgun and a lever action .357 without having to first register them with the BATF.
Thats what I call gang style weaponry how about you??
I say all this already having sent 50 bucks to RMGO the only state group fighting the innitiative in CO. after GOA having alerted me to their fight with very little aid.

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
THERE IS NO "GUN SHOW LOOPHOLE." Let us keep that firmly in mind.
The law they propose mandates that a private seller, as declared legal by the courts, must make exchange through a dealer, while at a show. Next comes exchanges at home.
Now, safe storage---they did this in Canada:
1) "Safe storage"
2) Store ammo separately for "safety."
3) since you can't reach the weapon in any reasonable amount of time, "Self defense" is no longer a valid reason. Handguns are banned.
4) Rifles with scopes are "Military style sniper rifles."
5) "Compromise" means giving up half of what you have for half of something you don't want.
6) No compromise with Fascists.
7) Are they willing to die to get my guns? Because I'm willing to kill to keep them.

------------------
“It is criminal not to teach a man to defend himself when he is the
constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a
shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law.”--Malcolm X
 
Love it here's the new one heard at my local gunstore
Proper gun safety is
'trigger lock on the gun,ammo stored separately,gun in locker.
So if someone breaks in you have to unlock the gunlocker un lock trigger lock after retreiving both keys and load your previously safe gun.
Well if you had time to do all that you had time to run away and didnt have to shoot them so you just committed premeditated murder or atleast manslaughter second degree.'
Or by the time youve done all of that your turn to find a knife coming into your chest or turn to see your 4 yr old being held by the throat with a long knife held in front of his throat and close to it.
GUN SAFETY- the principle that any violent criminals,swat teams or law makers will be completely safe from civillian owned guns and the idea that one must be 18 before they can safely live with an unSECURE gun.

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
Well I'm new to these boards so let me start off with this subject.

I just spent the weekend at a GunShow. Working 12 tables layer with guns plus an A-frame in the center with AR's and exotics. We had over $32K on the A-frame alone.

Had several groups of gang bangers at the show, not hard to spot them. Had a harder time spotting the Undercover Cops watching them. Trick they use is for one of their members that hasn't had any felonies to buy the guns for them. Nice thing is...we only deal with the high-end guns..the kind they cannot afford. But they did buy guns....usually from the unlicensed dealer that is there purely for the $$$$$.

Most dealers I know have no problem with requiring all to do background checks. Why?? simple..they have to do it....and the "private" dealer is undercutting their costs. Then you have the felon's that may or may not be buying guns thru these dealers. Ya never know when one of those guns may come back to bite ya.

You can stand and watch deals going on in the aisles all day long. Funny thing is the gangbangers don't deal with the individuals in the aisles....they go to the tables.... buy from dealers.

Now....can a dealer refuse to sell just because we suspect possible criminal activity? No. But we do have a neat trick we use. We collect the money BEFORE we make the phone call. There is also a sign quite visible saying we will change $25.00 for a Denial. They get denied, they don't get all their money back. Plain and simple. :)

I don't agree that the law's are correct... politically or otherwise. Are they likely to get worse...most likely so. But unless we can get Congress to change or revoke the current laws, (yeah.right) or the Supreme Court determines them to be UnConstitutional(I have 40 Ocean Front lots to sell in Utah), we are gonna have to live with them. That doesn't mean we have to like them or totally accept them.....we still have to work to recover what has been lost.

Get your friends....use www.Thomas.Loc and find your Congressmen and Senators and e-mail them weekly your feelings on GunControl.

Even Feinstien cannot ignore 20,000 e-mails per month from the folks she works for.

Leon.....
 
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