John Lott: Last night on Think Tank...

J

JimDiver

New member
I was flipping channels last night and crossed PBS to see a familiar face... John Lott.

He was on the show with 2 antis. He did a really good job, but they all were able to agree :eek: :eek: :eek: on one thing at the end of the show.

Both sides were able to agree that if national registration included the right to national concealed carry (carry anywhere in the US no matter where you are from or going to), they could all support it.


I am not too opposed to this idea... Anyone else have any thoughts?
 
Just goes to show you that Lott, just like Gary Kleck or Don B. Kates, although their research supports an armed citizenry, their died-in-the-wool liberalism allows them to think that registration is a dandy thing.

Has nobody told them of the link to confiscation?

Rick
 
Does someone have info on firearm violence among children growing up with firearms -vs- those that did not. And also info on rural -vs- urban.
 
Sure, let's allow the masses to have carry permits for a couple of years, then take their guns away.

No way, no how.

Dick
 
More important than carrying guns is having guns.

Registration bad mojo.

Like Canada, they'll harass you a BUNCH before they confiscate - including not being able to take your gun to the range etc. without a per-travel permit.

Battler.
 
I'd consider registration for a national CCW.

IF... a SC case came out decidedly in favor of the RKBA. Give me that, and register away. Barring that, I oppose registration.
 
I will oppose registration until someone can give me one good reason for it.

Seriously, what reason do antis cite when calling for registration? I think it's just one of those bandwagon things they all repeat after hearing each other say it.
 
Well, you folks are just too pessimistic. Just because registration has always led to confiscation eventually, that doesn't mean it will happen here, does it? After all, this is the good ol' USA, and we respect liberty and personal freedom, right? We have a Bill of Rights, don't we? (don't we? ... )

See www.sksbuyback.org . And, now I need to get back to that thread where they're confiscating guns in Michigan ... ;)

Wasn't it Mark Twain who said something like 'history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes ...'. ;)

Regards from AZ
 
I don't know. I've got a "saturday night special" that I'd be willing to register in order to be able to carry everywhere.

Might grow amnesia re: everything else though. :)


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I stand before Almighty God and I'll say what I have said for years. I will never again soil my responsibility as a voter by voting again for a candidate who turns their back on the fundamental principle of justice by which this nation's freedom lives or dies. --Alan Keyes, 2/2/2000
 
Just take a look at that post on licensing owners in Massachusetts. At first, it was a "lifetime" deal, then it became an
"expires on your birthdate" ream job.

Funny, federal programs always start out small and then expand forever. When it comes to gun rights, it starts out large and then shrinks to nothingness.

Registration, with ANY sweetener? Hell no, I won't go.

Natinal CCW with NO strings is what we should be agitating for. We should be making THEM sweat and counter-punch.

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.


[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited June 12, 2000).]
 
Lott may think registration is a good idea if it helps accomplish national concealed carry. But the antis see registration as a good idea that can then be turned toward confiscating all those registered guns, including concealed carry guns.

In my state we have concealed carry without gun registration. So I don't see that registration needs to be a condition of national concealed carry. If the antis start offering national concealed carry as way of promoting gun registration, I'd be willing to bet that their offer is a Trojan horse.

Anyway, as for me: no registration, ever, for any reason. It's none of the government's darned business what guns I own!

My $0.02.

[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited June 12, 2000).]
 
Registration is Unconstitutional by the federal government UNLESS it is done in conjunction with taxation, this is how the Government gets away with the registration portion of the 1934 NFA.
 
Don't you have to declare the specific gun covered by a CCW. I think you do in California. This isn't a Federal program, but the local Leo's sure know if you have a gun.

Also, I had a LEO ask me my name and DOB. He was able to get a list of handguns I had purchased in about 5 seconds. This was in California in 1992.

I am in an area where no one gets a permit unless you make a sizeable political contribution. I would be tempted to make a deal with the devil to get a CCW permit, but I understand the reasoning behind refusing to support registration.
 
I think that U.S history provides a clue as to what would happen if all guns were registered.

Class III firearms are registered. So, when the Feds decided not to allow any additional Class III guns into the system, all they had to do was to pass a law closing the registry. It was as simple as that.

The results would be the same for any registered guns whose registry was closed: no new guns on the civilian market, firearms gradually diminishing in quantity for law-abiding folk, escalating prices, and reduced affordability and availability of guns.

Then only the elite could afford guns. I wonder if that's the idea.

[This message has been edited by elector (edited June 12, 2000).]
 
Let's compromise. No registration! Not now, not then, not ever. I can envision no circumstance under which I would agree to registration. Now to my compromise. Bag national registration and pass universal reciprocity for CCW. I do not want the FEDS involved in anything of a national scope when it comes to firearms. Let's go one step further. Let's bag instant check, allow hi cap mags, and allow private sales of firearms without FED notice.

We have everything in place now for national registration without having to put up with the messy details of getting congress involved. I want it dismantled and I want the people responsible run out of office.

Rant over!

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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater--1964
 
RickD - I've read your posts quite a bit and know Kates.

From that sample, I'd take a Kates opinion every time.

Given these guys are very bright, they understand the issues quite well.

Perhaps, I'll ask Don what he thinks.

Finally, drop the horsecrap about liberalism.
The issue is the opinion about guns.
Plenty of GOP conservatives who are antigun.
Plenty of folks who don't buy conservative agenda who are progun.

Unsophisticated use of the term "liberal"
demonstrates a political naivite that weakens your argument and the RKBA.

Given a national CCW that did not require individual guns - I'd take it.

As far as your confiscation fears - Earth to TFL posters, you are already known. You posted you are pro gun on the Internet. DUH!
 
Our guns are alredy registered. We all know that they record NICS checks. We register guns at stores, and ATF is known to come in and copy the lists. We post publicaly on the i-net and prvatly on email, and they can track every such transaction right to our front door. If anyone here has ever bought a gun through a store, then you are a recorded gun owner for life. Even if we have not done that, we are registered members on the internet if it comes to that. If they want to find us it ain't tough. (Obviously I am not concerned, because I have done all of these things)

But, I am not about to make it any easier and I oppose any registration. For one thing, it is totally pointless. The anti's can't give one solid good reason for registration. They try to come up with reasons, but their excuses are totally lame. There is no benefit and too many drawbacks to gun registration.

I like the idea someone said before:

Have a slot on our dirvers license that says we passed a background check or whatever and are cleared to carry a gun etc. It will then be anonymous because everyone will have this little box on their license whether they use it or not. If you choose to use it, that is up to you, but everyone gets background checked etc when they get a license and their license (I am talking about their drivers license) states on there if they are qualified for CCW etc.
Then, if we have that anonymous little box checked, we can carry whenever and wherever we want, and we can buy full-cap mags etc. It will be like an advanced CCW license, but totally anonymous.


Ps- There are more issues than just RKBA, and Liberals suck! They are the bane of our society and the rise of Liberal values in the mainstream in the last few decades is solely responsible for the degradation of America. Our vicious fight today for RBKA is a direct result of the disease they have wrought on our society. JMHO!




[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited June 12, 2000).]
 
We already have a national CCW. It's called the Second Article in the Bill of Rights.

Of course, in reality, the Second Article has been dead since 1934. Any time a Right is regulated, permitted, licensed, registered, or restricted, it is no longer a Right, but merely a Big Brother Granted Privilege. 22,000 anti-gun laws on the books, federal, state, and local = a Dead Second Article.

Registration = Confiscation, eventually. Anyone who doesn't understand that is an extremely naive person. Well intentioned perhaps, but still extremely naive.

The communistnazis have one goal and one goal only: the eventual confiscation of all firearms of the serfs and peasants, and the extermination of the "vermin." They NEVER, EVER disengage.

National registration means you will be either murdered by the Gestapo/KGB, or thrown in a federal prison and your life and family destroyed... if you do not register your firearms. Every law passed, federal, state, or local, is eventually enforcible at the point of a cop's gun.

I frankly don't give one flat damn whether or
not the Gestapo/KGB has me on their lists because I post on a pro-gun site. I've been fighting the communistnazis since late 1963 when they told me it was my (collective) fault that Kennedy was shot because I owned a gun. So, if there are lists, I was on them long before posting here.

No More Compromises! We've given up nearly everything: they've given up nothing!

FWIW. J.B.
 
"Does someone have info on firearm violence among children growing up with firearms -vs- those that did not."

Yes, just recently there has been a study conducted by some branch of the federal govenrment which said that kids brought up around "legal" guns and parents that bought their kids "legal" guns were x times less likely to committ a crime than were un-gunned kids. The kids who got guns illegally were much more likely to commit crimes.

Dang, what was the name of that agency. I don't think it was DOJ or FBI.

"And also info on rural -vs- urban."

There have been studies done on them. Particulary rural blacks are more likely to be armed than their urban counterparts and far less likely to commit a crime. Rural blacks are almost as heavily armed as their rural white neighbors and just about as law-abiding. (Source: some criminology journal article...likely found in Kleck's book "Point Blank")

"From that sample, I'd take a Kates opinion every time. Given these guys are very bright, they understand the issues quite well... know Don...perhaps I will ask him what he thinks."

I have met Lott, but not Kates. For those of us who don't know Kates, we can read the book he co-authored with Kleck "The Great American Gun Debate."

I have never heard any of these quite liberal researchers mention the history of gun registration leading to confiscation.

"Finally, drop the horsecrap about liberalism. The issue is the opinion about guns. Plenty of GOP conservatives who are antigun. Plenty of folks who don't buy conservative agenda who are progun."

Watch your language. There opinion appears to omit the danger of confiscation. I have yet to read them touching the subject although I have not finished "GAGD." Don't confuse GOP with conservative. Think Olympia Snow and Christine Todd-Whitman for two. The others may very well be pro-gun, but their big-government leanings lead them to think that rights come with a little laminated card. I will not laminate my liberty.

"Unsophisticated use of the term "liberal"
demonstrates a political naivite"

A more sophisticated treatise would have required me to write a very long post just on the word liberal. I won't waste anyone's time. Liberals tend to see government solutions (laminated cards) while conservatives decry government solutions but do them anyway because they are almost as afraid of liberty as the rest of them. Sorry, there I am being unsophisticated.

"Given a national CCW that did not require individual guns - I'd take it."

Well, the gungrabbers know where to split us then. This should be some fight. Would you be willing to fight for national CCW that did not require Vermonters to laminate their liberty?

"As far as your confiscation fears - Earth to TFL posters, you are already known."

If that is the case, why are they working so hard to register and license us? It sure isn't for the criminological benefits.

Rick


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"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788
 
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