JFK conspiracy - history channel tonight

Rebar

Moderator
The history channel is replaying a JFK special tonight, that I found informative and convincing.

They modeled the entire event using 3-d computer techiques and the real ballistics from the carcano carbine, to realistically recreate it.

If you're interested in what happened, then it is well worth watching.
 
They have like ten thousand of those documentaries on Discovery, History, etc.

I don't see what the big deal was. Oswald was using a scoped rifle and managed to hit a slow moving man two times out of three at under a hundred yards. I'll bet just about anyone on this forum could do that.
 
Anyone familiar with Carcano Rifles will most likely tell you that JFK wasn't killed the way the Warren Comission said he was. First of all, Carcanos are known for their stiff bolts. I highly doubt that Oswald could've made those shots that quickly. Secondly, the high sectional density of the 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano round tends to cleanly bore a hole in one side and out the other rather than shatter the back of a head as is seen happening to Kennedy in the home movie. Finally, a bullet entering from the back of the head would have made a larger would exiting rather than entering but the film clearly shows the back of the President's head almost exploding: it would have been impossible for Oswald to shoot Kennedy in the front from the building he was supposedly in. Not to mention Arlen Specter's theory that the bullet made a right turn in mid air.
 
"Finally, a bullet entering from the back of the head would have made a larger would exiting rather than entering but the film clearly shows the back of the President's head almost exploding"

Examine the Zapruder film frame by frame -- it's on the intranet.

I once posted the applicable frames in a thread here.

The blood cloud doesn't come from the back of Kennedy's head. It's an illusion caused by Zapruder's angle to the car and the fact that the car is moving the entire time.

It's also very possible to work the bolt on a Carcano that quickly. I've done it.
 
I had seen the documentary on its original air date. It was interesting, but not as well done as it should of been IMHO.
 
Anyone familiar with Carcano Rifles will most likely tell you that JFK wasn't killed the way the Warren Comission said he was.

Actually, anyone who has handled a Carcano in REAL LIFE, rather than on the internet, can tell you that it is certainly an easy feat with such a rifle.
 
Since I refuse to pay for cable, I probably won't ever see it, so which conclusion does it push? A. That the government's story is mostly correct, but there are just so many "unanswerable questions." B. That the government's story is effectively correct despite "well meaning" errors, and we should all weep at such a sad event. C. That yes, there was a "conspiracy" but it was between oswald and figures we'll "just never know about" (oh, and the government's version of events is mostly correct.) Notice I didn't include an option for "government's version is a web of lies designed to cover for complicity" because such a documentary would NEVER be allowed to run on an establishment controlled network. SURE, I bet they spend loads of time on the lists of "discrepencies" in the government's version (they would have no choice in order to maintain SOME credibility, because the government's version is one long list of contradictions and obvious B.S.). HOWEVER, I would bet euros to dinars that the overall conclusion is that the government itself is essentially clean.

See, the government (especially the dark side of it) knows that, oh, effectively the entire country, knows that the government's story of the JFK hit is disinformation mixed with contradictions and full blown lies. This is one of the ONLY instances where Americans allow themselves to use the dangerous word "conspiracy" in the same sentence with the word government without the ever present fear of being called a "kook" or a "conspiracy theorist" (the public has been brainwashed to mock and prejudge anyone tarred with either of those labels). The government knows that the word conspiracy is how most of the nation labels the JFK hit, and that a huge amount of Americans believe (based on a sloppy and comical cover up) that the dark side of government flat out participated.

The popular myth (among so called conservatives) is that JFK was a pro constitutional hero, taken down because (I've heard it all over the years) A. he was allegedly going to pull us out of 'nam, B. he was a hero and "one of us" and had decided to finally do daring pro American/pro constitutional things like issue debt free silver certificates. The people pushing these things never seem to even know that JFK was a CFR member and had always pushed the subversive socialist agenda that his globalist handlers fed him. He was always a dedicated socialist (a requirement to being allowed to attain office ever since the constitution was overthrown by F.D.R.). If there is ANY truth to JFK printing up silver certificates, he was undoubtedly doing it to pay for his socialist agenda which had stalled in congress. If there is ANY truth to JFK allegedly wanting us out of 'nam, it is most likely that he simply didn't want to ESCALATE things, again, you guessed it, so he could use the money instead for his socialist agenda.

There's a thread of truth in almost every piece of disinformation the government puts out, and there is no question in my mind that those two "hero" myths about JFK were intentionally planted in the "conservative" movement to distract them from the specifics of the obvious evidence of government conspiracy. It worked, "conservatives" stopped demanding investigations where they actually belonged.

It is my concerted opinion that the dark side of government contracted out the JFK hit to multiple shooters. I believe the reason they took out one of their own was for the martyr effect. To say it worked, is the understatement of the century. The subversive socialist agenda that JFK was pushing in congress, suddenly sailed right on through. It became Christmas morning for the globalist powers behind the scenes who had seen their agenda stall for years. I've seen video of Johnson signing STACKS AND STACKS of legislation (nearly all of it socialist and unconstitutional) that "just suddenly passed." Basically, congress no longer dared to oppose nearly ANY legislation that was "JFK connected" once he was dead. "Conservatives," who would otherwise notice this, are kept from seeing it because of the disinformation that JFK was some sort of "hero" (which goes unchallenged by a mostly socialist nation, who naturally, also believes JFK was a hero, and probably wouldn't dare disparage the murdered president even if they knew or cared about the foregoing).

BTW, notice how the establishment rewards those who play ball. Specter, who came up with the nonsense "magic bullet theory" (and should have been immediately humiliated right out of town) has been rewarded with a chairmanship on the powerful senate judiciary committee. Every congresstraitor knows full well, that not only is there a REWARD mechanism for those who carry the establishment's water, but there is also a punishment system for those who expose or otherwise fight the power structure (just ask former senator Bob Smith of New Hampshire, and former U.S. House member James Traficant!).
 
I read an article where they reproduced the conditions (IE: Car on a sled, mannequins, and elevation, etc...) and the TOP MARKSMEN IN THE MARINE CORPS could not duplicate the shots as quickly and accurately as they were fired...Largely in part due to the fact that Carcanos are crummy rifles


:confused:
 
When I was in the USAF (this was about 25 years ago) I had built a moving target rig for a local "combat shooting" club. We set it up on the 100 yd qualification range at the base range, set it to run at 3 mph (walking speed) directly away from the 35 foot tall rangemaster's tower. One of the NCOs had a Carcano with the issue sights. We rigged some silhouettes on the target carrier and tried it out.

There was an article we'd read that said that Oswald was right handed, but shot off the left shoulder using the iron sights. He had driven his neighbors crazy by resting the rifle on the rail of the front porch of the house he was renting and practicing his bolt work. As I recall, he kept his left hand in the pistol grip and worked the bolt with his right hand, keeping it on the bolt all the time.

There were 5 of us, all serious gun-nuts, plus 3 other more casual shooters who were interested. Only one of the 8 of us couldn't get at least two hits in the time available. The Carcano bolt seemed smooth to me.

It's been said that there's no easy shot when your target is the POTUS and I'm sure that's true. Also, we weren't as high as Oswald was. Still, we were all convinced that anyone who says it was impossible for Oswald to have made the shots is wrong.

John
Cape Canaveral
 
The dead giveaway for me is Ruby. I find the idea of a man like him killing Oswald out of a fit of 'patriotic zeal' totally implausible. I do not speculate about who was behind it or what their motivations were, but I don't believe that Oswald acted alone.
 
From Wikipedia...

"Skeptics have argued that expert marksmen could not duplicate Oswald's alleged feat in their first try during reenactments by the Warren Commission (1964) and CBS (1967). In those tests the marksmen were attempting to hit the target three times within 4.5 seconds, however, the use of this time span has been heavily disputed and modern analysis of a digitally enhanced Zapruder film has suggested the first and final shots may have come as much as 8.4 seconds apart. Moreover, many of CBS's 11 volunteer marksmen, who (unlike Oswald) had no prior experience with a Mannlicher-Carcano, were able to hit the test target three times in well under the time allotted."


Once again, how many who are calling the Carcano a "crummy" rifle have actually fired more than just a couple of examples?

Lots of blather about how horrid the Carcano is. Properly cleaned and lubricated, a Carcano is no more difficult to operate soundly or quickly than most other WW II-era bolt-action rifles.

I've also fired several that, with iron sights, have proved to be perfectly capable of near minute of angle accuracy at 100 yards. With a scope to aid in precision aiming, I have no doubt that a properly set-up Carcano is fully capable of MOA accuracy.
 
Actually, anyone who has handled a Carcano in REAL LIFE, rather than on the internet, can tell you that it is certainly an easy feat with such a rifle.

I have a model 1891 Cavalry Carbine so I've handled one in real life thank you very much. It is not easy to rapidly cycle the bolt from the shoulder and stay on target. The bolt is rather stiff and the shape of the stock is not condusive to quick follow up shots. Also, autopsy photos of JFK show a neat little hole in his forehead and a larger one in the rear, this is not consistent with a bullet entering from the back of the head.
 
I don't really know or understand all the details of JFK's wounds and of course I don't know if Oswald was working alone or not, though he seems like the type. Considerable reason to think Ruby was a nut.

But I have looked out the window of the book repoisitory. And what I do know is that the shots can be made. Anyone who has ever competed in a high power rifle match has made shots better than that (as someone else here said).

What's more, I saw the news video done in the late 60's/early 70's that actually showed a number of marksmen doing the same feat; they didn't fail, they succeeded.

As for the hard bolt ... oswald owned the gun and probably knew it fairly well. He was also hyped up on adrenaline and was clearly having a "good day" (like we all occasionally have on the range).

Of course ... just because he could have done it doesn't mean he did.

I believe he did, but it's opinion only.
 
Good.

You've fired a SINGLE example of a rifle of which, what, over 6 million were made in something like 40 years.

And lord knows that every rifle made during that entire period has the exact same characteristics, right? In other words, if you've shot one, you've shot them all...

Just because you can't do somthing doesn't mean that someone else can't.

Just because your rifle has a stiff bolt mechanism doesn't mean that they all do.

As I've noted, I've fired more than my fair share of Carcanos (probably on the order of a dozen now) and I've encountered ones with stiff actions, passable actions, and several that have had rather excellent actions.

That is true of any firearm made in any quantity over time -- wide variations in actions are common.

Remember, too, that Oswald was firing from a rested position.


As for a neat little hole in Kennedy's forehead, I see no evidence of any such hole in these photos: http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html

I do see massive trauma to the side of the head, NOT the rear of the head, as is consistent with multiple witnesses and with the frame-by-frame analysis of the Zapruder film.
 
Mike, I'm not trying to bash the 6.5 Carcano here. I think it is a fine rifle that fires an excellent round. However, I do not share that view of the optics that were attached to Oswald's rifle: cheap aftermarket items of Japanese origin I believe and mounted in a less than optimal way I might add. You are correct that the photos show quite a bit of trauma to the President's head: the left rear. There are, however no entrance wounds (or any wounds for that matter) on the right side of the head. There is a small hole above JFK's right eye which leads me to believe that the bullet entered there from straight ahead, possibly fired from slightly to the right. As to the rifle having a stiff bolt, I don't doubt that there are examples out there with much smoother actions than mine. However, the 8 or 9 examples I've handled lead me to believe that this is the exception and not the rule. All the fellow Carcano shooters I've met concur with this view as well. Also, a Carcano's bolt is located well forward of the trigger making for quite a reach for follow up shots. Finally, the 6.5 Carcano round has a high sectional density not condusive to the large wound on the President's head no matter whether it was an entrance or exit wound.
 
"Left rear..."

No, not the left rear.

Take a look at the second autopsy photo. The location of the wound is nearly above the right ear, exactly where one would expect it to be if the shot struck in the REAR of the President's head while he was leaning forward with the shot coming from an angle.

That is exactly what is described by multiple witnesses to the shooting, and what is seen on the Zapruder film.

Other than conspiracy THEORY, there is no credible evidence available that supports a wound to the front of the head.

Yes, the 6.5mm bullet has a high sectional density, but that doesn't discount the fact that during testing similar wounds were created in test media.
 
Furthermore, images were taken that were later tampered with, muddling things even more. We've tried to include only photographs we believe to be actual autopsy images from the president.
So, are we sure that those are the real, untampered photos?
 
How Do You Know?

How do you know that the photos in the above referenced website were not altered or made up? Things can be made up on the internet too.
 
Back
Top