JFK 11/22/63...who did it?

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It was Elvis. But then he started to talk and the CIA had to knock him off to keep him quiet. Then Jimmy Hoffa found out what happened and tried to blackmail the CIA and he disappeared.
I think this thread should be closed immediately. It's just not safe to talk about. :D
 
Seriously, having given the subject a good deal of research and thought, I have come to the conclusion that there were actually three conspiracies.

First was the assassination. I believe it was the "mob" who actually killed JFK. They had the means, the motive, and the opportunity. Who else could put together such an operation AND not have anyone reveal any of it even 40 years later? Nobody except the mob can silence so many people so effectively. The killing HAD to have been a group effort because anyone with even a passing knowledge of ballistics can see that at least two, and maybe three or more shooters fired at Kennedy.

The second conspiracy was among federal and local law enforcement to cover up their own mistakes in allowing the president to be killed in broad daylight in the middle of the street. There may have been one, or a coiple of individuals who were in law enforcement involved in the killing, but I do not think any agencies as a whole were in on it. That is a silly thing to claim as some have done.

The third conspiracy was among the DC officials who wanted the whole thing to simply go away. Johnson wanted the investigation squashed because he feared where it might lead (like his own very shady past). The Congress and the military didn't want to inflame the popular belief that Castro was involved given the touchy situation with them, the Soviets, and all those nuclear weapons.

Oswald was a dupe, a patsy of the highest order. Everyone involved, including Ruby (who silenced Oswald) was connected to the mob in some way. They killed Kennedy because he crossed them on the deal they had made with his old man to lay off them. The FBI and CIA were just trying to cover their own asses and it made some people think they were covering up their involvement in the killing, but I don't think this is the case.

BTW- Posner is an idiot.
 
You're right in a way, tyme. I remember hearing more than once how RFK would tense up at the sound of a popping ballon. He knew it was coming.
 
One thing I find interesting about the conspiracy types is they believe that the same government officials that handled the Bay of Pigs killed Kennedy and that the several hundred people it would have taken to pull it off did so successfully and have maintained complete secrecy for the last 40 years. These people believe the incompetents in the government managed to pull off the most perfect coup in world history.

Does anyone actually believe that of all the conspirators, not one single person that had documented proof of that conspiracy would not have sold that evidence to some news organization by now? One single piece of proof-positive evidence would be worth a fortune.

My all time favorite debunking fact is that the conspiracy types believe there were three shooters using triangulated gunfire to kill Kennedy and framed Oswald as the lone assassin. Prior to the assassination, there is no way they could have been sure that following the shooting, all evidence would indicate the shots came from the rear of the motorcade. There was no guarantee the shooter in front would not have left an obvious entry wound on the body coming from that direction. There was no guarantee that the shooter from the rear would even hit Kennedy.

Also, the US wanted Castro out of power. If they were going to frame someone, why not frame Castro. That would have given them the excuse to invade Cuba and oust him. Why pass up such a perfect opportunity?
 
For me, it was hard to fathom that next year will be the 40 year anniversary of the shooting.

I didn't even realize it until a picture was shown on TV with the date of the assassination. And we are still discussing it after this much time has passed.

What an affect it had on us who lived it - I was 8 years old & in grade school, but I remember my mother crying during the funeral on TV.
 
I don't have a clue, but here's one I read in a Men's Magazine (yeah, I know) that appealed to me just because of the sheer irony.

The writer claimed that Oswald was the only shooter. The kicker was that he shot Kennedy by mistake. He was really after Texas Gov. Connely. The theory goes that Oswald didn't have an honorable discharge and couldn't get GI loans for school or housing. He appealed to the governor to upgrade his discharge and was refused twice, so he decided to pop him.

Just before the shooting I had bought one of those 7.35s through the mail (came wired to a length of board) and thought it was a POS. I tried rapid fire once and found the bolt handle too far forward for serious work, so I wondered how Oswald, with a cheap 4 power scope that had a narrow field of view and magnified every tremor, could be so fast and accurate. Yeah, I know the FBI did some tests that proved he could get off the shots that fast, but I always wondered if they ever tried shooting at the dummy IN THE FRONT SEAT to see if a missed shot would hit the president.

Believing that, IMHO, the cover up was that the feds didn't want to let on that Kennedy was killed by mistake. He then would be just some poor Joe who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and be an object of pity. Better to make him a national martyr.

Hell, that's as good as any I have read. ;)
 
Kennedy may have been a POS prez, but, he was still the prez. So lets forget the assasination.

I want to know...

Did the prez really sign an exec order putting us back onto the gold standard?

Was the prez really de-escalating the VN involvement?

I want to know where G.Bush Sr. was on Nov. 22, 1963?

Was LBJs wife really related to the Brown and Root people?

Was there a naval vessel involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion, that was called Barbara?

Did Oswald work for someone, who had family that was investing heavily in war materials?

Yup!, a lot of things going on, to many for me to believe it was a bunch of mafia thugs who popped the prez, and got away with it, because the feds were concerned with CYA.

If all the prez assasination records were to be released today, a lot of ex presidents would be
locked up. And our intel agencies (CIA, NSA, FBI) would be disbanded.

What's interesting, is how all the edumacated folks here don't see a conspiracy.

If 2 people discuss doing something unlawful or illegal, it would be considered a conspiracy.

Since Kennedys assasination, we have lost the most
liberty and have the heaviest taxation in this nations history. COINCIDENCE?, I don't think so.

IMHO

Waterdog
 
SaxonPig is exactly correct. Watch the history channel multi-episode special "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" - quite comprehensive and a few solid conclusions. It was actually sub-contracted from the Amer. mob to a boss in the French mob, who then used a few south american mercs to do it. Unclear exactly which American mobster hired the french guy - could have been a collaberation of several american bosses. There were 3 shooters, who fired 4 rounds, apparently. HKmp, they didn't give a damn about whether it was going to be obvious that there were multiple shooters - they just wanted the money for their Contract (and their employer wanted the Contract carried out), and the shooters knew they would be living it up in a south american country with no extradition treaty, in the extremely unlikely even the gov't could ever track them down - of course the gov't did not.
 
History channel's "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" is about 15 years old and several of their conclusions have been debunked since then.

If there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, for what purpose did they go to all of this trouble to frame Oswald and fake all of this evidence?

A single, professional assassin could have killed Kennedy and escaped completely undetected (which is what the conspiracy theorists believe). With absolutely no evidence, the assassination would have eventually become just another unsolved murder.

Trying to stage a crime scene is almost always a big mistake. Trying to stage crime scenes in Dallas, Mexico, Cuba, Florida, Maryland, Washington and Russia at the same time and the number of people it would have taken to succeed is just plain science fiction. There was no need to frame Oswald. There was no need to fake the autopsy, swap bodies, kill Oswald, silence Ruby, etc.

Yet another interesting point. All conspiracy types state that the autopsy at Bethesda was completely faked. How was it possible to have everything staged at Bethesda to fake the autopsy if no one knew it was going to take place there? On Air Force One, returning to Washington, Jackie was asked where she wanted the autopsy performed. She could have chosen any hospital in the area. The only way to guarantee Bethesda was if she was part of the conspiracy.

Although the author has already been called an idiot previously, read the book "Case Closed."
 
Many eyewitnesses reported hearing a shot inside or near the Presidential limousine. The driver, Bill Greer was seated two rows in front of and slightly to Jfk's left.

1.Bobby Hargis (Police motorcycle outrider, left rear of limousine):
Mr. Stern: Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the shots?
Hargis: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me,” 6WCH294.

2. Austin Miller (railroad worker, on triple overpass):
Mr. Belin: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?”
Miller: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car,” 6WCH225.

3. Charles Brehm (carpet salesman, south curb of Elm St.): “Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in front or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as if he would have after being shot from the rear,” “President Dead, Connally Shot,” The Dallas Times Herald, 22 November 1963, p.2

4. Officer E. L. Boone (policeman, corner of Main and Houston Streets):" I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the President's car was,” 19WCH508.

5. Jack Franzen: (south curb of Elm):He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and ...small fragments flying inside the vehicle and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile,” 22WCH840.

6. Mrs. Jack Franzen (south curb of Elm): “Shortly after the President’s automobile passed by…she heard a noise which sounded as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile…at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile,” 24WCH525.

7. James Altgens: (photographer, south curb of Elm):“The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

8. Hugh Betzner, Jr. (south curb of Elm, nr junction with Houston): “I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air,” I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car 19WCH467



"Handgun used"

"1. Dr. Charles R. Baxter, in Bill Sloan. JFK: Breaking the Silence (Dallas, Texas: Taylor Publishing Co., 1993), p.92: "Although Dr. Baxter…declined to be interviewed for this book, Baxter did issue a brief comment in October 1992 through the school's public information office in which he described the throat wound as being "very small" and looking as though "it might have come from a handgun."

2. Dr. Charles Wilbur: “Interpretation of the fatal head wound by several attending surgeons suggested a high velocity handgun bullet fired at close range,”

3. Iona Antonov, “On the Trail of the President’s Killers: part 2,” New Times, 1977, pp.26-30: New York Daily News quoted friends of John Rosselli to the effect that Oswald a decoy “while others ambushed” Kennedy from closer range.

4. Dr. Robert McClelland: "The cause of death was due to a massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple," (CE 392). <Admission>

5. Parkland Dr. McClelland's testimony as reproduced in Hearings volume 6, p.38: "Dr. McClelland judged that the wound in the President's skull could be expected '…from a very high velocity missile…with a heavy calibre bullet, such as a .45 pistol fired at close range…' This would particularly apply to the skull '…where there was a sudden change in density from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. As it left the body, it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up a large segment of tissue as it exited.'"

6. A.J. Millican: “It sounded like a .45 automatic, or a high-powered rifle.” <19WCH486>

7. S.M. Holland: “It would be like you’re firing a .38 pistol right beside a shotgun, or a .45 right beside a shotgun.”

8. “Garrison says assassin killed Kennedy from sewer manhole,” New York Times, 11 December 1967, p.28: Report of Garrison claim on WFAA-TV in Dallas – “The man who killed President Kennedy fired a .45 caliber pistol” and that the bullet entered the “right temple.” Gunman located within manhole on north side of Elm Street. Garrison had just taken possession of a set of photos showing cartridge case being retrieved by unidentified man, under noses of two Dallas police officers, on south curb of Elm.

9. Photo referred to by Garrison contained within Garrison Tapes documentary, timed at 01:22:04:15.

10. Joachim Joesten. The Dark Side of Lyndon Baines Johnson (London: Peter Dawnay, 1968), pp.248-249: Garrison set to release previously unknown set of photos “which saw a federal agent picking up a large caliber bullet from the lawn on the south side of Elm St, at the spot where Kennedy received his mortal wound. The bullet, which was previously identified as .45, was found amidst splotches of dark grey matter which came from Kennedy’s head…” p.249: “clock above TSBD, clearly visible in one of the pictures, reads 12:40.”

11. Statement of Hugh William Betzner, Jr., Warren Commission Hearings (WCH), Vol. 19, p. 467, taken 11-22-63:
JFK: Eyewitness statements, assassination of President John F. Kennedy, murder of J. D. Tippit and arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald: Hugh William Betzner

I was standing on Houston Street near the intersection of Elm Street. I took a picture of President Kennedy's car as it passed along Houston Street. I have an old camera. I looked down real quick and rolled the film to take the next picture. I then ran down to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets, this being the southwest corner. I took another picture just as President Kennedy's car rounded the corner. He was just about all the way around the corner. I was standing back from the corner and had to take the pictures through some of the crowd. I ran on down Elm a little more and President Kennedy's car was starting to go down the hill to the triple underpass. I was running trying to keep the President's car in my view and was winding my film as I ran. I took another picture as the President's car was going down the hill on Elm Street. I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker or a car had backfired. I looked up and it seemed like there was another loud noise in the matter of a few seconds. I looked down the street and I could see the President's car and another one and they looked like the cars were stopped. Then I saw a a flash of pink like someone standing up and then sitting back down in the car. Then I ran around so I could look over the back of a monument and I either saw the following then or when I was standing back down on the corner of Elm Street. I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car behind his and someone down in one of those cars pulled out what looked like a rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car. Then the President's car sped on under the underpass. Police and a lot of spectators started running up the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood. I assumed that that was where the shot was fired from at that time. I kept watching the crowd. Then I came around the monument over to Main Street. I walked down toward where the President's car had stopped. I saw a Police Officer and some men in plain clothes. I don't know who they were. These Police Officers and the men in plain clothes were digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a bullet. I walked back around the monument over to Elm Street where they were digging in the dirt. I went on across the street and up the embankment to where the fence is located. By this time almost all of the people had left. There were quite a few people down on the street and crowded around a motorcycle. I was looking around the fence as the rumor had spread that that was where the shot had come from. I started figuring where I was when I had taken the third picture and it seemed to me that the fence row would have been in the picture. I saw a group of men who looked like they might be officers and one of them turned out to be Deputy Sheriff Boone. I told him about the picture I had taken. Deputy Sheriff Boone contacted superiors and was told to bring me over to the Sheriff's Office. Deputy Sheriff Boone took my camera and asked me to wait. I waited in the Sheriff's Office and some time later, an hour or two, he brought my camera back and told me that as soon as they got through with the film and they were dry that they would give me the film. A little later he came in and gave me the negatives and told me that they were interested in a couple of pictures and implied that the negatives was all I was going to get back. To the best of my knowledge, this is all I know about this incident.

A damn good case if we must throw out the films, I would say:
 
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