Jeff Cooper, no hero of mine

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C

cornered rat

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Found this on Jeff Cooper's web site.


Reluctant as we may be to compliment a dictator who prefers to be addressed as "Comrade," we are compelled to do so in the case of Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. He officially refers to homosexuals as "perverts who do not deserve civil rights." In his words,
"Let the Americans keep their sodomy, bestiality, stupid and foolish ways to themselves. Let the gays be - gay - in the United States and Europe, but they shall be sad people here."

How about that?


About that...Jeff Cooper will get no links from my site. I shall refrain from getting his books.

It is his right to dislike gays, but it is, likewise, my right to pass judgement on his views. In commending some third-world junta leader for advocating mistreatment of homosexuals, he offends me and all those gay and lesbian friends that I have had the pleasure of teaching to shoot. He could have just as well said "kikes"...

He may be on the same side in the RKBA fight, but I am sad to note that he is not my friend, merely my enemy's enemy :(

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Even when the fight is lost, take some with you.
http://ddb.com/RKBA
 
cornered rat-

Jeff Cooper has done more than the entire membership of this Board to promote firearms safety, training and tactics. He has done more than the entire membership of this Board to promote Second Ammendment freedoms.

Jeff Cooper is also 80 years old. If his views on homosexuality are a bit dated for you and me, so be it. I'll grant him the latitude out of sheer respect. Your choice to avoid his writings is, I assure you, your loss.
Respectfully,
Rich Lucibella
 
It is not his view on homosexuality that I dislike, merely his endorsement of some unelected thug's mistreatment of gays. Had he merely stated his dislike without condoning that, I would have merely dismissed it under "it's a free country" concept...

It was an unpleasant throwback to the sentiments more common on the Tom Bower's forum...so I thought I'd get it off my chest and move on. And yes, it would be my loss...he's an amazingly articulate rifleman and writer.
 
Cooper is a overly opinionated blow-hard.

Cooper is one of the greatest assets of the American Shooting Tradition.

If you think those statements don't make him one of "us".. think about everysmall scale gun shop owner you've ever known. ;)

When I read Cooper's comments in G&A I always shake my head and laugh, but when I think about all the worthwhile things he has done in terms of training and tactics, I understand why he gets to rant on that page every month.

Yes, he has probably held back thousands of decent people from purchasing lightwieght, reliabel, modern handguns, but he has also constantly reminded those of us who have accepted the 2nd half of the 20th century that a gun is a tool. It is a tool that requires a mastery of the basics... not specialization in the intricacies of bullet wieghts, muzzle velocities and after-market gadgets (internal bipods excluded, obviously!).

I just hope people are still listening to me rant when I am 80... let alone think I should actually be held accountable for what I say!

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-Essayons
 
I agree with all of your comments. I would like to note, however, that sometimes I find pro-gun people with whom I agree on all important issues(and TFL has been amazing in that respect). Having seen the polite and civil side of the scene, drifting back to the brash and gutsy end jarred me a bit. I also thought that some of my friends would find it difficult to join the side which quotes writers advocating outright mistratment of their social group. That is one PR issue on which we lose and the Naz...err, DFL wins...they don't demonize any congenitally-defined groups. Now, people who like free choice are fair game to them, but I digress...
 
While Im not saying that Cooper was completely justified in his condoning mistreatment of gays, I must still respect him for all his contributions to the gun world. His basic point doesnt bother that much though, because I dont support homosexuality either. I would also add that every gun-enthusiast I know also shares his position on this matter.
 
I do not support ultra-orthodox Jews, either. In fact, they'd want to have as little to do with me as possible, and that feeling is returned. However, I would take offense if anyone suggested that the policy of mistreating them (or Gypsies or even those wicked Russians!) was somehow justifiable and even praiseworthy.

I do not care for many groups, but would only call for destruction of their members or leadership if they were directly attacking me. Thus, I am perfectly fine with the idea of killing members of gestapo but not stamp collectors, homosexuals, kengaroos, Turks or any other social, ethnic or behavioral group that does not attack me or mine first. Very few such groups are on my black list, most of them being "friends of the people".

CR

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Even when the fight is lost, take some with you.
http://ddb.com/RKBA
 
Sorry to sound disagreeable, but I think that the principle of not initiating aggression should not be cast aside merely because somone is perverted (but non-aggressive)in your eyes...and old Jeff was gettting awfully close to siding with someone who did just that. Remember, "first they came for..."?
 
spoonslayer-
Consider me the first gun enthusiast of your acquaintance who does not share the Colonel's position on gays. I just don't believe in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Rich
 
Jeff Cooper's political views are a couple clicks right of Attila the Hun (to use a tired expression). I have corresponded with him infrequently on the scout rifle and mentioned to him I didn't agree with his politics. He at least has a sense of humor about it. I have great respect for the man. The fact I don't agree with him isn't important. At the very least, Jeff Cooper has developed his ideas on his own and is not a ditto-head regurgitating Limbaugh. Cooper is highly educated and well read. His politics were not spawned in a vacuum. He also has more "world experience" than most of us. Let us not judge Cooper on a litmus test of political correctness. There are many in the past who would horribly fail by today's standards.
 
Unbelievable! Politically Correct gun board! I truly wish you all had the fortitude to express your feelings to the GURUs face in Atlanta. Not being a verbal masterbaterion like most on this board I'll simply toss my gaunlet in yer fudge packing faces. Dueling needs to be legalized to cull the weak minded from society. Reading this thread caused this amoral biker to puke. Looking forward to Shot in Vegas to meet all you Barney Frank Fans. *FTW*

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AFFA
 
Applications of the principles of freedom and tolerance upon which this country was founded is not a "litmus test for political correctness".

Endorsement of tyrants is offensive to me, and I share Cornered Rat's assesment of COL Cooper's political opinions.

It is however his right to say what he thinks and I shall not deprive myself of his tactical acumen over his human rights ignorance.

Cornered Rat, as someone else said, don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Take what you can from his techinical work and reject his senile pronouncements. He is an old man, and occasionally his judgement is seriously awry!

I hold no special reverence for the man, for he has always seemed to me to be as pompous and overbearing as those he rails against.

He has however, by all accounts, made some incredibly significant contributions to modern pistol craft. Respect that body of work separately from his gross errors.

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Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael



[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited March 03, 1999).]
 
Old Biker-
As your email address is not available, I have no choice but to break my personal policy and address you publicly. For the record, I am not a believer in the "genetic" predisposition toward homosexuality; nor am I a homophobe. In fact, homophobes frighten me much more than gays ever could.

I take very personal affront to your accusation that this Board is "politically correct". But for our tolerance, we'd be tossing many of the folks who visit...especially those who block their email address and use pseudonyms, while challenging our members to physical confrontation sometime next year.

However, your post violates the policies of your Membership; policies which you gave your word to observe. If you wish to continue this discussion, I'm easy enough to find. Start with my email.

All others...carry on.
Rich Lucibella

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited March 03, 1999).]
 
Wow, here I am in support of Jeff Cooper. I am only slightly younger than he and I admire him greatly. I love his ability with our language and , though I sometimes think he has taken an extreme stand, I stand beside him. If we had more people with backbone and traditional values, we would not be fighting the battles we face today. - Doc

[This message has been edited by Doc (edited March 03, 1999).]
 
I am unequivocally against the Homosexual's way of life, and at the same time I don't agree with their harassment or extermination.

They certainly have their cross to bear, as we all do.

Sincerely,

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
Were not talking about some third world country's restriction of civil rights. Nobody here has objected to THAT country's treatment of gays.
You are objecting to a U S citizens right to free speech.Lets face it(can I still say that?)there are a lot of people in the world who consider homosexuality to be a perversion.Here in the USA we are free to say what we like and dislike.
Instead of being politically correct and attempting to blame the comment on senility
why not use this forun to express your disagreement.
Like it or nor he is still free to express his opinion.
Can you envision a state where it is illegal to voice a dissenting opinion? What would you call that? Is it "political Correctness"?

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Hey folks, sorry to weigh-in so late, but I was temporarily confused and disoriented, as I thought I'd erroneously logged onto USENET's rec.guns.

Cornered Rat: I'm sorry, to see that you got so worked up over some foreign dictator's dictums (no pun here!) and an old man finding some faint praise in the same policy.

If we were running a contest for thread starters that were volatile and tend to incite, I think you'd win it hands down on this one.

There are a lot of people, cultures and social institutions that have principles and or characteristics that I personally find disagreeable or even repulsive. However, just because I've the insight to see what I perceive as a flaw, does not force me to close my mind to the entire entity.

I've followed your posts periodically, and more often than not you offered both keen insight and sound rational argument. From this I've inferred you to have an inquisitive and open mind, which does not seemed constrained by "boundaries" programmed by any influences other than your own rational perceptions. I hope I'm not wrong in this respect. And, as other members have previously stated, I would prefer to see you learn to sort the wheat from the chaff before condemning the harvest as a failure.


[This message has been edited by Mykl (edited March 03, 1999).]
 
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